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  1. #91

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    One thing about Americans is that we sure can complicate a simple idea.

    If I own a business and I believe being open on a holiday will NOT be lucrative, I don't open. If I have an hourly employee who normally works on whatever day Christmas falls on, they don't get paid because they don't work. This is easy.

    To the people who think people have the right to a day off but businesses can open, what happens if I want to work and the store wants to open but no one else wants to work so the boss closes down. Why does the "right" of the person to stay home trump my willingness to work? It shouldn't.

    If I own a business and I believe being open on a holiday WILL be lucrative, I open. If I want to do it this way and I have enough volunteers to run the business that day, I'm good. If I don't, then I assign people work, probably the people that would normally work that day. If an employee refuses to show up for work, I find employees that will. It's quite simple. If you don't like it, find another job where you won't work on a holiday.

    I used this example earlier, I'll use it again. JC Penney has not opened on Thanksgiving. They said they wanted to let their employees spend time with their families. This year, they are opening. Why? Because their direct competition--Kohl's and Macy's--have been opening on Thanksgiving. They've been giving away millions in sales. The decision NOT to open that day, along with other poor decisions, is why they are on the brink of bankruptcy. It's nice to get family time, but losing your job because it goes out of business because it is not competitive is much worse for that employee.

    This is the problem with unprincipled ideas. "Some people should HAVE to work on holidays and others shouldn't, and I will base that on the ideals that I feel are the right ones." Police, fire, paramedics, we all want them to work. But a lot of us travel. So we want gas stations to open. And if our car breaks down, we would like to be towed, so two truck drivers should work. And if I forget something, I want to be able to buy beer, or a can of yams, or whatever I forgot, so grocery stores are okay open. But Disneyland and Target? Oh, those employees should have a right not to work."

    Well that makes absolutely no sense. Because just like the blue laws got silly (you can buy a can of beans on Sunday but not a can opener or you can buy beer and wine but not liquor), that's what happens when you just base this on feelings on personal needs.

    Because if every employee has the right not to work on a holiday, then I argue the police officer, paramedic, and tow truck driver should have just as much right as a Cast Member or all we are doing is arguing degrees instead of ideas.

  2. #92

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Life saving functions aren't even in the same sphere, so that's a ridiculous argument.

  3. #93

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    One thing to remember, for those commenting from France, or elsewhere: most part time employees here don't get paid vacation days or leave. When their business is closed on Thanksgiving it means they lose a day of wages. Since many hourly wage workers don't make a lot of money to start, losing a day's pay can be devastating.

    Here's the crux of it, as I see it:

    1. Some people really value Thanksgiving as a day to spend with family/celebrate in the "traditional American way."
    2. Some people do not.
    3. Many businesses have decided that Thanksgiving is a lucrative day on which to open.
    4. Many consumers, whether they celebrated "traditionally" earlier in the day or not, like to patronize these businesses.
    5. With tourist businesses like Disneyland, in particular, there might be an extra impetus to stay open on Thanksgiving or any other holiday. Some families might be vacationing FOR their holiday celebration. And not everyone patronizing these businesses is American, either - if you're visiting Disneyland from Japan, Canada, Italy, whatever, you probably couldn't care less about Thanksgiving because it's not your particular cultural holiday.

    It should really be the business's own decision when they wish to open and close.

    I do think we'd all be happier and healthier if we followed France's lead in granting everyone a certain number of days of paid leave/vacation, and that might be the solution. You, as an employee (even part time), have X days. If you want to take off on Thanksgiving, or a religious holiday, or whatever, you can use one of your days.
    Last edited by Malina; 11-13-2013 at 12:36 AM.
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  4. #94

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    Life saving functions aren't even in the same sphere, so that's a ridiculous argument.
    Superficially, yes. But if the assertion is that employees have a right not to work on a holiday, then you can't just say, "Oh, you guys over here--you don't get that right. Because we say so." In reality, they are employees too. As the people, though, we are in charge of the government and we've decided that these services must work on holidays. I completely agree.

    So why shouldn't businesses owners be offered the same abilityluxury as the people to decide whether or not they want their employees to work? Because the majority says so? That's wrong. And it's already been established that exceptions can be made. Even if we all agree on it, it is still an exception. And if exceptions can be made, then employees really don't have a right, only certain employees do, and the whole argument breaks down, because why wouldn't we then carve out an exception for journalists? If there's a tsunami warning, should journalists just be allowed to say, "Nope, sorry, my day off. Have fun swimming!" No, we would probably then require journalists to work. And so on and so on.

    I'd be interested to see how many people who think employees should have the right to not work on a holiday would feel the same way when it screws up their NFL/NBA game or Twilight Zone Marathon.

    I actually think people make these decisions based on class. Minimum or near-minimum wage people? Oh, they shouldn't have to work. The middle and upper classes (pro athletes, cops, firemen, major journalists, etc.)? Oh, they need to work.

  5. #95

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Almost all CM's get Holiday Pay for working Thanksgiving. And the salaried managers all get a free Comp Day for working the holiday. There's enough people working that once you've got about 2 years of seniority you can get the day off if you really want it. Anyone with four or more years of seniority can get the entire week off.

    The end result is that almost all of the CM's working on Thanksgiving chose to be there for the extra pay and benefits. And it's also a good excuse to get out of a bad family dinner you may not want to be at.

    Don't feel sorry for the CM's working Thanksgiving. We knew what we were getting into when we applied for the job, and most of us want to be there on that day for the extra cash and perks.

    If you feel strongly that Disneyland shouldn't be open on Thanksgiving or Christmas, then don't go.

  6. #96

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    I don't agree with a company of any sort being forced to close on a holiday, in theory it may sound good, but reality is for those who miss a days wage, it can be a hardship. Losing 1 day's pay for example for me, is an extreme hardship since I don't make a very high wage. I am lucky in where I am we do get holiday pay as its mandated by the government, but in most if not all of the US this is not so, California being a place where a company can choose not to pay holiday pay.

    I've always worked in companies with a 24/7 operation (airlines and hotels.) and going into these industries I knew and accepted I would not get holidays off unless it was my normal day off.

    Growing up my mom was a paramedic, she was never home for holidays, she worked 8am to 8pm, it was normal for my family.

    I live 1,300 miles from my family, and never gone home once for a holiday, forcing me to have the day off by closing my company for the day wont change that, but I'd be bored stiff at home, alone. Atleast with working, I am around people on the holidays.

  7. #97

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    @ Stormy, I agree, I don't think someone could get, say, every Sunday off for church, but I would think that on a day where religious observance was necessary or customary, an employee could make a case for at least some time off for church or temple. I don't know about Passover, but you're right, there ARE some days where very observant Jews are forbidden to work and are expected to spend the day at the synagogue...Yom Kippur, the day of atonement comes to mind. In that case even turning on a light or pressing an elevator button is considered work, so yeah, they'd have to get the day off. I am also thinking of, say, Good Friday where observant Catholics are supposed to go to church and pray the stations of the Cross.

    I guess it also depends what the employer has agreed to. In the job I mentioned, I had a colleague who never worked Sundays. He was very religious and that was what he negotiated when he was hired, and they wanted him enough to agree to never schedule him on Sundays.

    I think if it was necessary, as in mandatory, then yes, you'd have to be granted time off. Only customary, the employer probably couldn't be mandated to give you the time off. So an observant Catholic who is 'supposed' to pray the Stations (i.e. it's customary, but not mandatory) might not be granted time off (also the fact that you could probably do it before or after work, I had a coworker who did that, along with the Ash Wednesday Mass thing) where an observant Jew would have to be granted Yom Kippur off because the no work all day long is mandatory, not just customary.

    It starts getting into a grey area, I think, when you start talking about actually forcing businesses to close for religious observances, that's why I think granting religious time off is such a good thing.

    Side note; someone earlier asked if Walt closed the Parks on Thanksgiving or Christmas & I believe the answer is 'no'. I can recall going one time Christmas Day when I was a kid. The park, believe it or not, was pretty empty.
    Last edited by Stormy; 11-13-2013 at 07:15 AM.
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  8. #98

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Westsider View Post
    Almost all CM's get Holiday Pay for working Thanksgiving. And the salaried managers all get a free Comp Day for working the holiday. There's enough people working that once you've got about 2 years of seniority you can get the day off if you really want it. Anyone with four or more years of seniority can get the entire week off.

    The end result is that almost all of the CM's working on Thanksgiving chose to be there for the extra pay and benefits. And it's also a good excuse to get out of a bad family dinner you may not want to be at.

    Don't feel sorry for the CM's working Thanksgiving. We knew what we were getting into when we applied for the job, and most of us want to be there on that day for the extra cash and perks.

    If you feel strongly that Disneyland shouldn't be open on Thanksgiving or Christmas, then don't go.
    Great post. And while this is true, I'm glad Sleepyjeff brought up the subject. A very interesting discussion developed.

  9. #99

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Westsider View Post
    There's enough people working that once you've got about 2 years of seniority you can get the day off if you really want it.
    I'm not buying that when it comes to friends of face characters.

  10. #100

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    It starts getting into a grey area, I think, when you start talking about actually forcing businesses to close for religious observances, that's why I think granting religious time off is such a good thing.
    Definitely. I agree. If the business is religious they should do what they want - I know Jewish businesses that close for every single holiday of the High Holy Days and close early every Friday for Shabbat, and there's Chik-Fil-A that has chosen to close on Sundays - that's their choice as individual businesses. Mandating any of that on a governmental level just isn't cool, though.
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  11. #101

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Yom Kippur, the day of atonement comes to mind. In that case even turning on a light or pressing an elevator button is considered work, so yeah, they'd have to get the day off.
    This is true, but sundown Friday to sundown Saturday every week has the same rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Westsider View Post
    Don't feel sorry for the CM's working Thanksgiving. We knew what we were getting into when we applied for the job, and most of us want to be there on that day for the extra cash and perks.
    Thank you for posting this. That is exactly the case, I completely agree with you.

    Employees knew going into their job that the industry that they were going into is something that is open for business on weekends/holidays so there was a chance going in that they would have to work on one of those. It was a career/education choice that they made. It’s something that I had to do while working menial jobs while I was going to college. It was something that I vowed never to do again, so I worked hard and got a good education so that I could choose a career path that would allow me to find a good job that doesn’t force me to work weekends or holidays. Everyone has the same opportunity to do so.
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  12. #102

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    This is true, but sundown Friday to sundown Saturday every week has the same rule.
    True, but a lot of Jews don't take their observance that far, especially if they're Reform. But they will observe Yom Kippur once a year even when they don't observe Shabbat every week because it's special.
    Last edited by Malina; 11-13-2013 at 01:32 PM.
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  13. #103

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    What about the family from out of town that takes vacation to Disneyland because of the kids having time off? Why is this a big issue now? I certainly know the mindset of many new people in the workforce is totally different....perhaps they think Disney owes them a day off?

  14. #104

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    Thank you for posting this. That is exactly the case, I completely agree with you.

    Employees knew going into their job that the industry that they were going into is something that is open for business on weekends/holidays so there was a chance going in that they would have to work on one of those. It was a career/education choice that they made. It’s something that I had to do while working menial jobs while I was going to college. It was something that I vowed never to do again, so I worked hard and got a good education so that I could choose a career path that would allow me to find a good job that doesn’t force me to work weekends or holidays. Everyone has the same opportunity to do so.
    It's worth noting that a lot of professional roles, NOT just low paid ones, have weekend/holiday/evening hours - doctors, nurses (anyone in the medical field, just about), police, firefighters, social workers in hospital/emergency settings, journalists working in newsrooms, airline pilots (and anyone else working in an airport, from the air traffic controllers to the crews), college professors who do night or weekend classes, well paid actors on Broadway, etc. A friend of mine who works in a very good corporate job has to sometimes come in on Saturdays or start business trips on Sundays.

    It IS par for the course in a lot of jobs, both high and low paid - and I do agree that it's something that employees know when they get hired. If it's super important to you to have a particular day off, it's something that needs to be negotiated or chosen. The guy I mentioned who was super religious, and got my old job to give him Sundays off, told me that he was fully prepared to walk away and look for another job if they refused to negotiate with them.

    I'd think a lot of families COULD find ways to work around it, too. Maybe you have a really early or late Thanksgiving dinner to accommodate a family member who has to work, for instance.
    Last edited by Malina; 11-13-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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  15. #105

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    Re: Should Disney Parks close on Thanksgiving Day?

    I think it would be nice to live in a community where the stores closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas because everybody stayed home and it wasn't worth it for the stores to open. However, I would hate to live in a community where the government forced the stores to close on those days.

    When I was a CM, I remember being told a few times during the hiring process that "we work while others play". The CM's are told right at the beginning they are expected to work holidays, summers, all of the normal vacation times. It comes with the job.

    While in college I worked as a security guard. I had to work Thanksgiving and Christmas. It was mostly to just make sure the computer servers didn't over heat. But I had to work those days.

    Now, I work at a school district. I work year around, all summer. I get the holidays off, but I don't get paid for the holidays off. I get paid for only 243 days a year. "Most" full time jobs get paid for 260 days per year. So, I get all the holidays off, nice long Christmas break, just don't get paid for them. I'm not complaining. I enjoy the set hours and the time off. I know I just pay for it.
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