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  1. #181

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Which is entirely different than today where additions are based on box office receipts and merchandise sales first and maybe story later.
    Point taken but I would argue those things always were a factor to some degree. Also I'll amend my earlier post by saying finances has ALWAYS been a factor. Tons of stuff got cut down or axed over the years due to expense. Additionally, I think there's some great newer attractions which are every bit the quality that the early ones are. It's just that they are newer stories and characters and some people do not have an emotional connection to them.

  2. #182

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Not just Splash - Indy's not based on a given movie, and not particularly based around *INDY* if you think about it. There are a few jokes, but remove awareness of the character and you still have an amazing experience that should translate to anyone riding regardless of whether they've seen the movies.

    THAT should be the bar. "Does this make sense if you haven't seen the movie?".
    Exactly, this is why Little Mermaid and Monsters Inc. fail in my book. It is as if you need to understand their plots before going on the ride. Disneyland (and California Adventure, for that matter) should be about having original experiences that exhibit creativity and imagination, for they should not merely summarize a movie plot.




  3. #183

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by frollofan View Post
    It's unfortunate because a ride like Splash Mountain can have a movie tie-in that works into a well made ride that drives in the people, even if nobody recognizes the characters from Song of the South. I feel like the executives today wouldn't consider building something like it again because the movie is either a. not popular enough or b. the movie did not make near the amount Avatar made. In my opinion, box office sales do not automatically promise a high quality attraction.
    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Not just Splash - Indy's not based on a given movie, and not particularly based around *INDY* if you think about it. There are a few jokes, but remove awareness of the character and you still have an amazing experience that should translate to anyone riding regardless of whether they've seen the movies.

    THAT should be the bar. "Does this make sense if you haven't seen the movie?".
    Song of the South actually had a successful theatrical rerelease in 1986 before Splash Mountain was given the final approval. What it shows is how quickly cultural awareness can shift. A big part of why using an intellectual property is preferred is because of that awareness. That very same concern for costs should also show a concern for the future, but the concern with cost is more about shirt term impact than long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Wilkinson View Post
    Point taken but I would argue those things always were a factor to some degree. Also I'll amend my earlier post by saying finances has ALWAYS been a factor. Tons of stuff got cut down or axed over the years due to expense. Additionally, I think there's some great newer attractions which are every bit the quality that the early ones are. It's just that they are newer stories and characters and some people do not have an emotional connection to them.
    Finances being a concern of what is built, in terms of scope and techniques, is different than finances dictating content.

  4. #184

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by film975 View Post
    I find it amusing sometimes when people complain about all the movie tie-ins at Disneyland when the park itself was designed and built by movie people. And why is it always the Submarine Voyage that gets the brunt of everyone's criticism? If you ask me, Innoventions is the real eyesore that needs to be removed and replaced.
    Movie based attractions and original attractions built by movie people are entirely different things. Sure, there are many skills that can be transferred, but theme park rides are a very different format, and Walt and the imagineers learned on the job to adapt to the new format they were working in. Plot is the core of movies, however, plot usually leads to failure with theme park attractions. If you look at the movie based rides, they are most successful when they focus on experience, not plot. Walt and Co. learned this lesson early on and used these lessons to create an entirely new genre.

    The attractions with movie tie-ins that are successful are the ones that understand and apply this critical lesson. Rides like Star Tours, Indy, Buzz, TSMM are successful and beloved because they don't try to incorporate any aspect of their films' plots. They focus entirely on creating an engaging experience within the imaginary world of their source material. Even amongst the classic style dark rides the pattern plays out. Those that focus on experience, Pan, Toad, Alice, remain much more beloved then those focused more on plot, Snow White, Pinocchio, Pooh, Monster's and Mermaid.

    You ask why so many deride the Submarine Voyage, it's filled with plot, which results in a boring experience, period. The ride offers absolutely nothing of interest to me or anyone I've ever met in the real world. In other words, it sucks big time. You'd have to pay me to ever go on that thing again.
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  5. #185

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by frollofan View Post
    Exactly, this is why Little Mermaid and Monsters Inc. fail in my book. It is as if you need to understand their plots before going on the ride. Disneyland (and California Adventure, for that matter) should be about having original experiences that exhibit creativity and imagination, for they should not merely summarize a movie plot.
    I kind of agree with you. But what about Peter Pan's Flight or Alice in Wonderland? Don't you think both of those rides kinda assume you have a fundamental knowledge of the movie plot as well? I'm not a fan of the Little Mermaid attraction. I wouldn't have even bothered making a Little Mermaid ride. I still do not understand why they thought that was a good idea given all the other material they had to work with. Monsters Inc. could be a good attraction but it was basically a retool of Disney's most embarrassing attraction ever so they didn't need to put that much effort and imagination into it. Anything would had been 100X better than SSL. But then you look at RSR and Carsland, Tower of Terror and Journey to the Center of the Earth and realize that it's not as bad as you guys are making it out to be.

    Also Uncle Bob I completely agree with you. The best rides are not plot ridden.

  6. #186

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
    Movie based attractions and original attractions built by movie people are entirely different things. Sure, there are many skills that can be transferred, but theme park rides are a very different format, and Walt and the imagineers learned on the job to adapt to the new format they were working in. Plot is the core of movies, however, plot usually leads to failure with theme park attractions. If you look at the movie based rides, they are most successful when they focus on experience, not plot. Walt and Co. learned this lesson early on and used these lessons to create an entirely new genre.

    The attractions with movie tie-ins that are successful are the ones that understand and apply this critical lesson. Rides like Star Tours, Indy, Buzz, TSMM are successful and beloved because they don't try to incorporate any aspect of their films' plots. They focus entirely on creating an engaging experience within the imaginary world of their source material. Even amongst the classic style dark rides the pattern plays out. Those that focus on experience, Pan, Toad, Alice, remain much more beloved then those focused more on plot, Snow White, Pinocchio, Pooh, Monster's and Mermaid.

    You ask why so many deride the Submarine Voyage, it's filled with plot, which results in a boring experience, period. The ride offers absolutely nothing of interest to me or anyone I've ever met in the real world. In other words, it sucks big time. You'd have to pay me to ever go on that thing again.
    This is also why, when their is a successful plot, it is typically no more than "something goes horribly wrong." It is easy to establish and convey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Wilkinson View Post
    I kind of agree with you. But what about Peter Pan's Flight or Alice in Wonderland? Don't you think both of those rides kinda assume you have a fundamental knowledge of the movie plot as well?
    I think they had to work without knowing the films given their box office performance.

  7. #187

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Wilkinson View Post
    ^^^ Why would they do this? The submarines are costly, slow loading and have low capacity. There's no reason to rebuild the subs except to appease some nostalgia.
    No. I have never heard anybody say, not once, that they want the Submarine Voyage back as it was. Even in 1998 it had became incredibly antiquated and in need of an update.

    In 2007, it was updated. The subs themselves became battery powered, the sets became dry for easier maintenance which was great. They also added Nemo...which is great for 7 year olds I guess.

    But nobody was looking for this attraction in particular to stay the same. Nobody misses seeing fish on strings.

    What people miss, and for good reason, is the spirit and sense of adventure of the last attraction. Discovering Atlantis, diving under the North Pole, Giant Squids, bioluminescent sea creatures, underwater volcanos, mermaids, a sea serpent and dozens of other forms of sea life. It inspired you, entertained you and even educated you. It was a one of a kind adventure that you couldn't find at a Paramount's Kings Dominion or a Cedar Point or anywhere else in the world for that matter.

    If retaining a landmark comes at the cost of low hourly capacity, so be it. And what kind of Stockholm syndrome must I have to agree that the park that charges $92 admission and sells a neon green cotton "Disneyland 2013" shirt for the price of two Knott's Chicken Dinners (sans gratuity) should close a ride because they have to spend money on already significantly reduced maintenance costs??? And where is Disney's sense of pride? And what happened to being the theme park leader?

    They already replaced a masterpiece with a movie. I just hope that Nemo lasts long enough for Disneyland to be managed by people who know how to run a theme park again.
    Last edited by manifest; 12-05-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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  8. #188

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by manifest View Post
    What people miss, and for good reason, is the spirit and sense of adventure of the last attraction. Discovering Atlantis, diving under the North Pole, Giant Squids, bioluminescent sea creatures, underwater volcanos, mermaids, a sea serpent and dozens of other forms of sea life. It inspired you, entertained you and even educated you. It was a one of a kind adventure that you couldn't find at a Paramount's Kings Dominion or a Cedar Point or anywhere else in the world for that matter.

    This.


    This is what makes a Disneyland experience truly a *Disneyland* experience. That sense of adventure that you are experiencing, something completely different and unique to anything else you have seen.

    That moment when your submarine would enter the deepest of the ocean deep, into areas that no human had ever explored before. Pitch black waters with creatures you would never have fathomed seeing before. Journeying to Atlantis, the amazing place of legend and seeing mermaids live there in their secret hideaway.

    Back in the 1980's, WDI was working on concepts to update the Submarine Voyage. One concept was a sort of mermaid parade/spectacle that would have used brand new technology (I think with LEDs). I was lucky enough to get my own copy of the art (framed an all) because the Disney Gallery was closing and selling its pieces for special sale prices. The image is really spectacular...and it proves just what Imagineering could do if there wasn't such a desperate clinging to movie tie-ins for everything.

  9. #189

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by manifest View Post
    What people miss, and for good reason, is the spirit and sense of adventure of the last attraction. Discovering Atlantis, diving under the North Pole, Giant Squids, bioluminescent sea creatures, underwater volcanos, mermaids, a sea serpent and dozens of other forms of sea life. It inspired you, entertained you and even educated you. It was a one of a kind adventure that you couldn't find at a Paramount's Kings Dominion or a Cedar Point or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
    Actually there used to be a Submarine Ride up here at the West Edmonton Mall. In a lot of ways it was better than the Disneyland version (they had real fish instead of plastic fish). They ended up closing the thing when they were losing something close to $100,000 dollars a year keeping it open. Submarine rides are just expensive to keep running, and compared to what can be done with other ride systems and aquariums, they are just not worth the effort.

    If retaining a landmark comes at the cost of low hourly capacity, so be it.
    Disneyland isn't a museum. They shouldn't be forced to maintain attractions that no one wants to keep simply due to some obligation to nostalgia. For all the complaints about Club 33 taking up park space, you would think people would be far more concerned about the Submarine Voyage: a ride that chews up resources and cost and that only a small percentage of Disneyland visitors ever get to experience.

  10. #190

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Let me preface this by saying that I did love the Submarine Voyage and do appreciate their place in history, but there's something else I want to say that's going to come off as pretty harsh:

    Quote Originally Posted by manifest View Post
    What people miss, and for good reason, is the spirit and sense of adventure of the last attraction.
    I think that in the last 15 years since the original Submarine Voyage closed, the nostalgia people had for this ride has built up into this image that the attraction never really lived up to. It was a silly little ride that very uncomfortably skated between the realm of military dominance and fantasy. This was an attraction that was developed to very much capitalize on the 1958 news of the submarine Nautilus traveling under the north pole. It was a time that America was very proud of their nuclear submarine fleet and their military dominance in general and the original attraction was even sponsored by a military contractor (General Dynamics).

    But then with all this display of military might, you would board a submarine and see Atlantis, mermaids and sea Serpents - none of which really exist. I would even dare to suggest that Finding Nemo is a more realistic representation of what is under the ocean that then original Submarine Voyage.

    It was a silly ride indeed. Any sense of adventure and inspiration derived from it, was wholly on the part of the participant.

  11. #191

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Actually there used to be a Submarine Ride up here at the West Edmonton Mall. In a lot of ways it was better than the Disneyland version (they had real fish instead of plastic fish). They ended up closing the thing when they were losing something close to $100,000 dollars a year keeping it open. Submarine rides are just expensive to keep running, and compared to what can be done with other ride systems and aquariums, they are just not worth the effort.



    Disneyland isn't a museum. They shouldn't be forced to maintain attractions that no one wants to keep simply due to some obligation to nostalgia. For all the complaints about Club 33 taking up park space, you would think people would be far more concerned about the Submarine Voyage: a ride that chews up resources and cost and that only a small percentage of Disneyland visitors ever get to experience.
    The bolded part - the comparison of an actual aquarium with live animals AND a ride operating through the tank to the subs is not QUITE apples and oranges, but it's perilously close. The operating expenses of maintaining proper pH, feeding, cleaning and such for an aquarium of size WITHOUT the ride is already high. It's not quite accurate to use that as a comparison to the current subs - for one, Disney can jack up the chemicals in the water to help keep down algae and such. What are they going to do, kill Nemo?
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    The bolded part - the comparison of an actual aquarium with live animals AND a ride operating through the tank to the subs is not QUITE apples and oranges, but it's perilously close. The operating expenses of maintaining proper pH, feeding, cleaning and such for an aquarium of size WITHOUT the ride is already high. It's not quite accurate to use that as a comparison to the current subs - for one, Disney can jack up the chemicals in the water to help keep down algae and such. What are they going to do, kill Nemo?
    Exactly the point. If you want to provide a realistic submarine experience (which you can certainly do) it becomes incredibly expensive and is easily trumped by current aquarium experiences. That means that the very basic premise of a submarine ride is obsolete. It's not enough to just have a submarine cruising around a lagoon and looking at fish (whether they are real or not). That kind of ride needs an extra gimmick or hook to entertain. The Imagineers who were desperate to bring the ride back pitched the Nemo theme and it stuck, but they had also experimented with making it a thrill ride (something like Alien Encounter under water). But doing that would have been just as silly as Nemo.

  13. #193

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Exactly the point. If you want to provide a realistic submarine experience (which you can certainly do) it becomes incredibly expensive and is easily trumped by current aquarium experiences. That means that the very basic premise of a submarine ride is obsolete. It's not enough to just have a submarine cruising around a lagoon and looking at fish (whether they are real or not). That kind of ride needs an extra gimmick or hook to entertain. The Imagineers who were desperate to bring the ride back pitched the Nemo theme and it stuck, but they had also experimented with making it a thrill ride (something like Alien Encounter under water). But doing that would have been just as silly as Nemo.
    *shrug*

    I don't believe they were ever truly trying to provide an "aquarium" experience - the amount of time you spend in the presence of 'real' critters - even in the original - before moving on to the more 'fantastical' of sharks n' divers, volcanos and other more easily abstracted, caricature style experiences is minimal. Once you leave that opening 'grand sweep', you're in the show building and away from the lagoon full o' fake fish.

    I'll be honest - I'd have RADICALLY preferred some of the more 'thrill' oriented versions that were bandied about. My personal favorite was the motion-platform subs with intrusive interior effects. They sold me at motion platform subs on that one. But I don't think at any point was or is the ride really supposed to be an aquarium-style experience. Atlantis and such kinda make that harder to believe.
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    I think staying in the spirit of the original attraction works best. A combination of education, story, and humor. Of course it won't have real fish. It has to simulate an ocean environment, not a mere aquarium, which would be obvious. And I don't prefer thrill, which would not work with the current vehicles. What would have helped is larger windows instead of the tiny portals. A more entertaining show in the caverns and more interaction in the cabins.

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I don't believe they were ever truly trying to provide an "aquarium" experience - the amount of time you spend in the presence of 'real' critters - even in the original - before moving on to the more 'fantastical' of sharks n' divers, volcanos and other more easily abstracted, caricature style experiences is minimal. Once you leave that opening 'grand sweep', you're in the show building and away from the lagoon full o' fake fish.
    Even then the ride was more about fantasy than anything else?

    Think of how the Jungle Cruise would work if they tried to take it seriously. They thought plastic animals were the best option and look how that turned out.

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