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  1. #196

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Algernon View Post
    Close the Subs. Rip out Nemo, for four years olds, (where you go underwater to watch a bad cartoon) and bring back a modern version of the Submarine Voyage, for ALL age groups to enjoy.
    I agree just recently got my annual pass after many years and was very disappointed with the subs. Seems to be poorly thought out . The old subs were great don't know who decided to change them for the worse.

  2. #197

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Actually there used to be a Submarine Ride up here at the West Edmonton Mall. In a lot of ways it was better than the Disneyland version (they had real fish instead of plastic fish). They ended up closing the thing when they were losing something close to $100,000 dollars a year keeping it open. Submarine rides are just expensive to keep running, and compared to what can be done with other ride systems and aquariums, they are just not worth the effort.



    Disneyland isn't a museum. They shouldn't be forced to maintain attractions that no one wants to keep simply due to some obligation to nostalgia. For all the complaints about Club 33 taking up park space, you would think people would be far more concerned about the Submarine Voyage: a ride that chews up resources and cost and that only a small percentage of Disneyland visitors ever get to experience.
    Where do I start with the responses? I'll take this one on first:

    I hear the "Disneyland isn't a museum" rhetoric kicked around here ad nauseum, but this really isn't applicable at all here when talking about the Submarine Voyage...nor is nostalgia for that matter. I remember exactly the way I felt about this ride as a teenager when it closed down, and my feelings have not changed at all. It was an amazing ride that was in desperate need of an enhancement.

    If there was one thing that has changed and grown on me (sadly) is the realization that this was an incredibly expensive attraction to operate.

    ...WHICH WAS ADDRESSED IN 2007. The subs became battery powered, the sea floor was painted with glass to endure the chlorine, the sets became placed behind glass for easier maintenance and with that the 'sea' requires 1/3 less water than it used to.

    Furthermore, if a ride at your local mall is better just because they used 'real fish' then we weren't 'fans' of the Subs for the same reason. Maybe they also had real Giant Squids too...
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  3. #198

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by manifest View Post
    ...WHICH WAS ADDRESSED IN 2007. The subs became battery powered, the sea floor was painted with glass to endure the chlorine, the sets became placed behind glass for easier maintenance and with that the 'sea' requires 1/3 less water than it used to.
    Improved does not mean addressed to the point of no longer being an issue. It's still a massive lagoon that needs to be maintained to a very clean standard. You still have underwater elements that require divers to work on. You still have a fleet of boats that require upkeep. You have the projection systems which have been noted in this very site about the obscene costs and failure rate of the light sources. It still requires a ton of labor for an attraction with an very low capacity. It still is very much an operational albatross. The improvements in the new attraction have made it so the attraction has held up better no doubt - but made it cheap to run? No
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  4. #199

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    [QUOTE=MrLiver;1057055438]Disneyland isn't a museum. They shouldn't be forced to maintain attractions that no one wants...QUOTE]

    And then there's this..

    Bravo. I admit to being such a fan of reading these hard cold 'facts' that you always pull out from nowhere on how the public at large feels about extinct attractions.

    It's your go to argument. Small World adds characters? The public at large wants it. People Mover? Nope, people have moved on. And now nobody wants the subs but a select people that post on a fan website. Why? because you said so.

    The closure had nothing to do with a short-sighted management in the mid 90's skimping and cutting back on costs that is pretty well documented on the internet, right?

    No of course not. It can't be. Because you said so, and you have your finger on the pulse of what everybody wants.
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  5. #200

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Improved does not mean addressed to the point of no longer being an issue. It's still a massive lagoon that needs to be maintained to a very clean standard. You still have underwater elements that require divers to work on. You still have a fleet of boats that require upkeep. You have the projection systems which have been noted in this very site about the obscene costs and failure rate of the light sources. It still requires a ton of labor for an attraction with an very low capacity. It still is very much an operational albatross. The improvements in the new attraction have made it so the attraction has held up better no doubt - but made it cheap to run? No
    I know it's unheard of to say on this site, but there's a price to being the best.

    It's what separates the New York Yankees from the Kansas City Royals...
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  6. #201

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by manifest View Post
    I know it's unheard of to say on this site, but there's a price to being the best.

    It's what separates the New York Yankees from the Kansas City Royals...
    I agree with you in theory, but...

    2013 Yankees Payroll: $229Million
    2013 Yankees Record: 85-77
    2013 Playoffs: No

    2013 Royals Payroll: $80Million
    2013 Royals Record: 86-76
    2013 Playoffs: No

    2013 Pirates Payroll: $66Million ($163Million less than the Yankees)
    2013 Pirates Record: 94-68
    2013 Playoffs: Yes

  7. #202

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by manifest View Post
    The closure had nothing to do with a short-sighted management in the mid 90's skimping and cutting back on costs that is pretty well documented on the internet, right?
    You have to understand how theme parks work. If a ride is popular and brings in people, its get fixed. When a ride is unpopular, it doesn't get fixed and eventually gets removed. That's a fact. It's just the way a park operates.

    The subs closed in 1998 because they were unpopular.

  8. #203

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojave View Post
    I agree with you in theory, but...

    2013 Yankees Payroll: $229Million
    2013 Yankees Record: 85-77
    2013 Playoffs: No

    2013 Royals Payroll: $80Million
    2013 Royals Record: 86-76
    2013 Playoffs: No

    2013 Pirates Payroll: $66Million ($163Million less than the Yankees)
    2013 Pirates Record: 94-68
    2013 Playoffs: Yes
    I must admit I saw this coming making a Yankee reference after the year they just had... Yes, you're right...this year. Maybe even the year before...maybe they've even had a drought recently. My point is:

    Overall, historically, the Yankees are consistently better because they spend, the Royals are not because because they don't. Anomalies always come up, like the Pirates (and remember those 2002 Angels??), but the Yankees throughout time have consistently spent more, consistently won and thus consistently been the highest grossing baseball franchise.
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  9. #204

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Duplicate!
    Last edited by manifest; 12-06-2013 at 10:22 PM.
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  10. #205

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Improved does not mean addressed to the point of no longer being an issue. It's still a massive lagoon that needs to be maintained to a very clean standard. You still have underwater elements that require divers to work on. You still have a fleet of boats that require upkeep. You have the projection systems which have been noted in this very site about the obscene costs and failure rate of the light sources. It still requires a ton of labor for an attraction with an very low capacity. It still is very much an operational albatross. The improvements in the new attraction have made it so the attraction has held up better no doubt - but made it cheap to run? No
    This.

    The subs still cost a fortune, and still rank as the most expensive ride in the park to maintain, plus it has low overall ridership and occupies a large amount of land (which it shares with Autopia, but still). Yes there is a price to being the best, but there's a point where that money could be better allocated to provide a better overall experience.

  11. #206

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by manifest View Post
    I must admit I saw this coming making a Yankee reference after the year they just had... Yes, you're right...this year. Maybe even the year before...maybe they've even had a drought recently. My point is:

    Overall, historically, the Yankees are consistently better because they spend, the Royals are not because because they don't. Anomalies always come up, like the Pirates (and remember those 2002 Angels??), but the Yankees throughout time have consistently spent more, consistently won and thus consistently been the highest grossing baseball franchise.
    This is not even remotely accurate. The Yankees are one of the highest grossing franchises because of the market they play in (New York) and the fact that they're the only New York team left from the 50s and before (both the Dodgers and Giants moved out in the 60s, and the Mets started in 1962). As to their spending money, it's again more about how they spend their money than how much they spend. The teams of the 90s were near the top of league payroll, but were carefully crafted. The more recent Yankee teams have suffered due to their free spending nature and not being smart with the money. Or even look at this past season: of the top 7 payrolls in the majors, 4 failed to make the playoffs, and 3 of them finished below .500 (this number would be worse if I went further, so I decided to stop after the Angels).

    Point is, like baseball, the best way to build Disneyland is to allocate money in a carefully planned way. Throwing money at a problem, or in Disneyland's case keeping an incredibly expensive ride open when that money could be better used elsewhere, isn't the best solution.

  12. #207

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Now, as for the subs, as much as I think exploration of the depths of the ocean should be a part of any new Tomorrowland, there has to be a better way to do it. Maybe smaller subs that can be put on an actual track and don't need a separate operator to pilot. Have the subs load at ground level so that you don't have to climb stairs, thus decreasing the load time, or something along these lines.

  13. #208

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Nirya View Post
    Now, as for the subs, as much as I think exploration of the depths of the ocean should be a part of any new Tomorrowland, there has to be a better way to do it. Maybe smaller subs that can be put on an actual track and don't need a separate operator to pilot. Have the subs load at ground level so that you don't have to climb stairs, thus decreasing the load time, or something along these lines.
    That's actually not that bad of an idea...if they went with something like this, I could get behind it..
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  14. #209

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Nirya View Post
    Now, as for the subs, as much as I think exploration of the depths of the ocean should be a part of any new Tomorrowland, there has to be a better way to do it. Maybe smaller subs that can be put on an actual track and don't need a separate operator to pilot. Have the subs load at ground level so that you don't have to climb stairs, thus decreasing the load time, or something along these lines.
    The subs ARE on tracks. And raising the subs and loading people through doors(?) at ground level and then lowering them back into the water... those door seals better be really good!

  15. #210

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    Re: Submarines plan to close permanently Jan 4 other bad news

    I always remember the subs having a 30-45 minute line. Yes, the attraction is low-capacity, but it still had plenty of guests willing to wait that long for it at any given time. From my own personal experience, I never saw it as "unpopular," nor do I think back on it with rose-tinted glasses - because I do truly remember it, in all it's good and bad (good in terms of the physical, 3-dimensional animatronics, bad in terms of the fish obviously moving via wires and such bad upkeep to seeing that starfish that had clearly been glued to the rock-work had fallen off or pieces of it had broken off).

    The only section that ever felt somewhat out of place to me was the polar ice caps, which were implemented per the sponsor's request. But it was still cool. I never picked up on the connotations of propaganda, though reading more about the history of the attraction, I can see elements of it now. But I wouldn't say that it was any worse compared to most of the propaganda that Americans are exposed to today.

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