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  1. #31

    • Pilot EdForceOne
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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by swampymarsh View Post
    You probably noticed that the biggest part of the bulbs in a heat sink to keep it cool, the heat still goes somewhere.

    In 5 years the bulb is going to be producing a small fraction of the light it does when first used. That is why they are not cost efficient and worse than CFLs.
    You are looking at 'direct replacement' bulbs and applying that to all LED implementations. A system built for LEDs from the start has no heat sink or heat problems. LEDs are extremely energy efficent, run with virtually zero heat output, and are very cheap. It's taking a 3-5V LED and making it work in a 120V light socket that complicates things. Real systems move the transformer and current issues to the power supply where it belongs.

    Warm white LEDs are common now too. Still not exactly the same as incandescent - but close enough. It's hardest when you look at them side by side.. but without the side by side you don't notice it.
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    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  2. #32

    • Pilot EdForceOne
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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    Given Disney's history of using LED's or any other energy saving technology, I think it's pretty clear they will use them where ever possible.
    They already do in show lighting systems... in any high light output system, the LED's lack of heat output is a HUGE deal.
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    Am I evil? yes, I am
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  3. #33

    • Pilot EdForceOne
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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ohmyjustin View Post
    it's the difference between being socially responsible and not.
    Should Disney stop doing fireworks immediately? Because those are not even remotely environmentally responsible. Or how about traveling around the world just to study theme.. or transporting artifacts they could easily reproduce locally but they want originals.. all of these are examples of theme over 'socially responsible' and are traits fans adore Disney for.

    It's a balancing act... Don't be a 49er... but don't forget what business you are in.
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    Am I evil? yes, I am
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

  4. #34

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    They already do in show lighting systems... in any high light output system, the LED's lack of heat output is a HUGE deal.
    +1. It's a huge difference on stages now.

  5. #35

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by swampymarsh View Post
    ... In 5 years the bulb is going to be producing a small fraction of the light it does when first used. That is why they are not cost efficient and worse than CFLs.
    Quality LED lamps work to something called an L70 standard. The emitter lifespan claim you see on the box (e.g., 25,000; 50,000; 100,000 hours) is the number of hours the lamp will run before its color accuracy and lumen output drops to 70% of its "initial" (new-out-of-the-box) performance. So, you may see years of continued performance from your LED lamp after it reaches its stated L70 date.

    But the emitters aren't what usually fails anyway. The bigger issue is the power driver and printed circuit board, which aren't always up to the task of running for 5 or 10 or 15 years. Especially in tiny replacement lamps, like C7 or E11 base, this presents a real design challenge.

    There are plenty of products that simply embed the emitter at the destination, while the "brick" power supply and data enabler resides at the beginning of a long, continuous string of lights. These may (or may not) lend themselves to period lighting applications like you'd see on Main Street or on the Mark Twain.
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  6. #36

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyC View Post
    J
    Also Halogen bulbs are exempt from the new bulb laws. So movie theater lighting that dims would not be effected.
    They're exempt (Halogen), but we already have high-power LED (sometimes marketed as "laser LED") Projection systems.

    Problem with them is they're hard to find in stock... they're not cheap, but they sell as fast as the distributors get them in.

    The lack of heat on the systems is the biggest benefit... no fans (or a very small fan) is needed, which helps keep the optics clean and steady for long throw focus. They also should be outdated before a lamp replacement will be needed.

  7. #37

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Should Disney stop doing fireworks immediately? Because those are not even remotely environmentally responsible. Or how about traveling around the world just to study theme.. or transporting artifacts they could easily reproduce locally but they want originals.. all of these are examples of theme over 'socially responsible' and are traits fans adore Disney for.

    It's a balancing act... Don't be a 49er... but don't forget what business you are in.
    I knew someone would ding me on this. I was going to say "proactive" in my original post but I know that Disney isn't proactive. There isn't an equivalent for fireworks, just like there isn't an equivalent for world travel (reproducing vs transporting might be more complicated--what are the industrial costs of making new materials and how difficult is it to transport?). Light bulbs, on the other hand, have a readily available substitute that will, when thoroughly implemented across the resort, will make a big impact on Disneyland's footprint.

    If you were to tell me that there is a low-emission firework substitute that provided the same visual spectacle, I'd want Disney to pursue that as well.

    Social responsibility is more than just what is right for the environment. In fact, it's really more about what is good for society as a whole at the lowest possible cost, including the intangible cost of "theme" at a theme park.

    Quote Originally Posted by swampymarsh View Post
    coincidently I had a meeting with an energy consultant from the local electricity concern last week. If you research what I said before you will find it to be true.
    Is it possible you were talking to someone who wants you to use incandescent bulbs? LED use a tiny fraction of the energy incandescent and CFL bulbs do and are far more efficient.

  8. #38

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ohmyjustin View Post
    Is it possible you were talking to someone who wants you to use incandescent bulbs? LED use a tiny fraction of the energy incandescent and CFL bulbs do and are far more efficient.
    Absolutely not. This person was talking about conserving and generating energy. That is because they produce local power cheaply and don't want to raise rates when extra power has to be bought off the grid or at least they don't want to hear the customers complain when it happens.
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  9. #39

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by swampymarsh View Post
    Absolutely not. This person was talking about conserving and generating energy. That is because they produce local power cheaply and don't want to raise rates when extra power has to be bought off the grid or at least they don't want to hear the customers complain when it happens.
    And on the other side of the picture, my power supplier when they did their energy audit, recommended LED over CFL's to cut energy costs, and provided a coupon for 5 off each LED bought, and I waited for a sale, and got them for 5 bucks a piece. Home Depot Canada sells 40 and 60 watt equivalents between 10 and 16 dollars depending on brand, Wal-Mart is about the same, but only have off brands so didn't want to try them.

    My energy consumption has gone down, prior to October we were averaging 11 kwh per day, November and December the average is down to 7 kwh per day, and despite colder weather, shorter days, we are using less electricity vs CFL's so for me, its worth it.

    I am more concerned about using less power overall, then trying to figure out how much I need to save money wise to break even, its more about the environmental effects then the money.

    Less power hydro has to produce, the less dams they need to build.

  10. #40

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    LEDs would be a better choice, in my opinion, than CFLs for Disneyland as LEDs are capable of producing a more even mix of colors to produce white. The chart below is from Popular Mechanics and illustrates the "spectral power distribution curve" of 4 light sources. While incandescent gives a "warmer" look, properly designed LED lights can produce a wide range of color frequencies. CFLs have spikes at certain color frequencies which could throw off the perception of color on things being illuminated, and certainly throw off the colors in photos taken by park guests.

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  11. #41

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ohmyjustin View Post
    There isn't an equivalent for fireworks
    they developed pressurized air deployment systems which in turn cut back on the black powder... I'd say that was an equivalent.
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  12. #42

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    they developed pressurized air deployment systems which in turn cut back on the black powder... I'd say that was an equivalent.
    What's that cost? Maintenance? If it's low enough and truly an equivalent in terms of safety and usefulness etc. then I'm all for this system.

  13. #43

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ohmyjustin View Post
    What's that cost? Maintenance? If it's low enough and truly an equivalent in terms of safety and usefulness etc. then I'm all for this system.
    You'll like reading this then:

    Disney's Smoke-Free Launches - Los Angeles Times

    Disneyland's been using a mostly pneumatic launch system since 2004
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  14. #44

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    Fireworks are not nearly as much of a threat to the environment as is sometimes claimed. The process of conflagration takes place in the air as the various chemicals including oxidizers burn in the air, and smoke residue generally drifts away. Any debris that falls to the ground is primarily paper, which is biodegradable. As I understand it the switch to a compressed-air launch system rather than black powder charge launches was to appease the neighbors of Disneyland and their complaints about the nightly noise. That is also why you rarely seem to hear salutes (loud booms) in Disneyland's fireworks displays.

  15. #45

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    Re: Effect of Incandescent Bulb Phase-out at DLR

    My main concern here is whether WDI uses LED controllers that can output steady light when such light is required. For instance, I find the visible strobing of many of the LED lights used in Radiator Springs Racers highly distracting (especially when in relative motion) and therefore aesthetically poor. This is almost certainly the result of using low-frequency pulse-width modulation (PWM) to set the appropriate output level instead of higher-frequency PWM or better yet current regulation (my little pocket flashlight uses current regulation, so why can't this be done at Disney parks?). This is the same problem that most LED-based taillights on newer automobiles have, and none of the ones in this attraction are modern. Hopefully a better job will be done with future implementations of LED technology in the parks, or else it would be rather disappointing (albeit not unfixable in the long run).
    Last edited by Robert Cook; 12-30-2013 at 07:45 AM.

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