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  1. #106

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post
    What's your proof Mr. Liver to suggest your theory?
    When has he ever had proof?
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  2. #107

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by mondo View Post
    Question: What is the proof that the current Subs cost a lot to maintain?
    I've seen this thrown around a lot and I would like to know the answer myself.
    The ride rarely breaks down, there is minimal daily maint. other than picking some debris out of the water and it's similar to keeping a massive pool (that no bodies use) functioning. Are there unseen daily costs? What are they?

  3. #108

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    I've seen this thrown around a lot and I would like to know the answer myself.
    The ride rarely breaks down, there is minimal daily maint. other than picking some debris out of the water and it's similar to keeping a massive pool (that no bodies use) functioning. Are there unseen daily costs? What are they?
    Maintaining props and effects underwater is extremely costly...the water wears away paint, technical proficiency, etc. This also applies to the track, ride vehicles...basically every component of the ride is suffering significant wear and tear by being submerged in water (that thing youre supposed to keep all your electronics away from) all day every day.

    So not sure where you got that assumption that maintenance was so cheap...besides that, Im guessing th operating costs of powering huge vehicles like the subs must be astronomical. Add to that the fact that there are many vehicles and a long track length. Im guessing its definitely one of the most expensive rides to run in the park.

  4. #109

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post
    What's your proof Mr. Liver to suggest your theory?
    Well if you want proof you will have to go get a job at TDA. Otherwise you can just take Al's word for it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lutz Update 8-16-98
    The low numbers in the Rods rider surveys - over 80% of the riders hated the ride - along with the low numbers they are getting for Innoventions [comparable I understand] will hopefully guide them into making some major improvements soon in this troubled land.
    In a later update in May of 2000, he gave a little more insight on the downtime:


    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lutz Update 5-30-00
    Tomorrowland managers had heard that initially the ride was going to be shut down entirely, and the Park would claim it was an "unscheduled rehab" at first, and then never reopen the ride. The rumor continues on this one, we'll see what happens. From another kind source:


    Also the constant vibrating that the buildings adjacent to the Rocket Rods undergo has really taken it's toll over the last two years. There is no way that under current operations that ride will make it to it's fifth anniversary.


    Factor in that the maintenance costs are way off the scale and show no sign of letting up, [At one point they had six cars in the shop out back being worked on, they are a nightmare to maintain from what I understand.] and the ride has a much lower rider capacity than originally planned, and that the ride has a low Satisfaction rating, and you have the 21st century version of the Flying Saucers.
    This was all going down at the same time that Pressler was spending a fortune to rebuild the Matterhorn from the inside out, just to keep the same iconic structure in the park (Lindquist was initially told it would be cheaper to tear it down and rebuild it up to code than to attempt the 11 year refurbishment). When the money was needed for other projects, it was there. If the Rocket Rods were as popular as Space Mountain of Indiana Jones, they would have found the money to fix the problems. That's how it works. It's a balancing act between spending the money and what you get out of it.

    GM pulling out had little to do with the problems with the Rocket Rods. Most of the problems were with the design of the ride. The engines broke due to a bad design and the software caused the ride to constantly go down. I would believe that GM pulling out severely hampered the show, but there's no reason to believe that the lack of funds from GM somehow caused WDI to forget how to engineer.

  5. #110

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
    Maintaining props and effects underwater is extremely costly...the water wears away paint, technical proficiency, etc. This also applies to the track, ride vehicles...basically every component of the ride is suffering significant wear and tear by being submerged in water (that thing youre supposed to keep all your electronics away from) all day every day.

    So not sure where you got that assumption that maintenance was so cheap...besides that, Im guessing th operating costs of powering huge vehicles like the subs must be astronomical. Add to that the fact that there are many vehicles and a long track length. Im guessing its definitely one of the most expensive rides to run in the park.
    The props are rarely ever fixed or repainted on that ride, maybe once or twice a year, and when they do take out a prop it usually goes missing for a few months at a time.

  6. #111

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    I've seen this thrown around a lot and I would like to know the answer myself.
    The ride rarely breaks down, there is minimal daily maint. other than picking some debris out of the water and it's similar to keeping a massive pool (that no bodies use) functioning. Are there unseen daily costs? What are they?
    How many other open air bodies of water do you come across inland that are as clear as the water in the lagoon? That is not by accident, nor is it 'free'. Maintaining that water quality and clarity requires massive plant infrastructure and utility cost to run that.

    Second, you have to deal with so much of your show sets and infrastructure being underwater. You don't just walk up to it and touch it. That means boats.. that means divers.. that means specialists. All of that is extremely expensive vs 'walk up and touch it'.

    Third, water needs to be contained. Unlike air, which you can just ignore lack of structure integrity, water must be physically constrained or bad things happen. That kind of integrity requires regular upkeep. Anything that involves water, even non-immersion increases cost. Anyone who lives on or near the water can attest to that

    Fourth, you have examples like the projection upkeep highlighted by Miceage (2 years ago?) where they said the projection systems involved were going through tens of thousands of dollars in bulb replacements at absurdly short intervals.

    Take all of this.. and you have a cost that is offset by a very low guest capacity. It's very easy to justify 100,000 if it's addressing 50,000 customers. If that same 100,000 is only addressing 10,000 customers... well you can see how the same amount of money doesn't return the same value.
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  7. #112

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Doesn't the battery on a Prius cost like $3000-4000? Going from a motor to batteries may have been better for their carbon footprint, but with what it would take to power the subs, I'm thinking maintenance or replacement of batteries cost a lot more than most people would realize.

    Maintaining a large body of water like that doesn't just account for repainting or replacing track sections or scenery, but keeping the water filtrated and clean, and chlorinated. Just maintaining a swimming pool in a backyard is a lot of extra monthly cost on electricity and supplies (granted they aren't trying to keep the lake heated in any way). I have no clue what it costs to maintain the ride, but based on these things I'm pretty sure it is high.

  8. #113

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Also, all reports suggest the lagoon leaks water into the ground constantly, so they have to continuously add water to the lagoon.

  9. #114

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    Re: The subs are going.

    I was at the resort this weekend and from what I could see from the Monorail, there were technicians working on one of the subs parked in the dock and there were some other workers doing some minor painting or something on the exterior of the show building. As well, there were a large group of Imagineers in hard hats doing a tour of the exterior of the ride so I do believe that they are doing work on the lagoon. As mentioned before, this ride does need a lot of upkeep and I do believe that this is just some TLC that the ride needs.
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  10. #115

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    Re: The subs are going.

    saw it coming a mile ahead

  11. #116

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    Re: The subs are going.

    If the subs were to close I think WDI could come up with some interesting ways of using that piece of land.

    If the submarine showroom was drained and gutted they have quite a large show building that they could use for an interesting darkride add to that the possiblity of the land above it once the showroom was re-enforced and you could build multiple attractions just like they are now but with higher capacity.

    Even if they did want to build a rollercoaster they could have load and unload near the existing submarine load area and have the coaster use the inside caverns then come out the other end of the showroom and continue above ground. No need to waste the innoventions building for the same attraction.

  12. #117

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    I've seen this thrown around a lot and I would like to know the answer myself.
    The ride rarely breaks down, there is minimal daily maint. other than picking some debris out of the water and it's similar to keeping a massive pool (that no bodies use) functioning. Are there unseen daily costs? What are they?
    1- water. This ride uses 6,300,000 gallons of water that constantly needs to be cleaned, chlorinated, and filtered even though no one swims in it. An average swimming pool uses 25,000 gallons, ask someone who owns a pool how much that costs, trust me it's more then they want to pay. Now times that number by 252, that number Disney pays..

    2- Batteries/ the subs - The batteries used to replace the diesel engines were extremely expensive to purchase and to maintain. These batteries are charged by contactless inductive coils which are also very expensive to purchase and install. 7 years of constant ware and tare is causing these batteries to not hold the charge they designed to hold. Yes you may not see this ride breaking down but they must constantly bring subs back into the charging stations during busy days, remember there are 8 subs in rotation. The maintenance needed for these batteries and systems is intensive and requires a special crew which adds up.

    3. Animatronics- there are around 126 audio animatronics throughout the ride, and when you put them underwater a number of different problems arrive that need special care and attention. Paying someone to go under water is way more expensive and time consuming which also adds up.

    4. The lagoon and paint- to keep this lagoon and it's coral nice and vibrant takes time and money.

    5. Load time. Slowest loading ride in the park. Only 40 guests can load on sub at a time.

    6. Staffing. This ride needs the most staff to run and operate, there are many cast members you do not see who are apart of this ride.

    7. All equaling to the ride costing Disney the most money to operate, which might be the reason it is closed because at the moment all new projects are being stopped to address the issues with The Magic Bands and the next Gen project in Orlando. They might just be closed to save some money and give it a face lift while they are at it.

    looks like they will be back just for a short time to be only closed again to prep for much needed new attractions. But who knows....

  13. #118

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    Re: The subs are going.

    I still don't understand all this vitriol for the Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage. Granted most don't like how the computer animation replaced the amazing animatronics that used to part of the original ride. But I believe it was a good compromise... considering the expense of maintaining them underwater.

    I think the Imagineers did an amazing job trying to make the screens look like they really are underwater. I would hate to see it replaced by Star Wars. The Subs in that lagoon are a great piece of atmosphere for Tomorrowland. But if the Indiana Jones Adventure, would you want to see that dismantled just because of that?

  14. #119

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Another thing that i would like to know. Did Disney not think about the expensive maintenance cosr when they brought it back? Is it more than the original ride? They should have known the original was expensive. Did they really thought they could cut down the cost?

  15. #120

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    Re: The subs are going.

    Did Nemo finally drown?

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