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  1. #16

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshBakedDisney View Post
    Fast passes aren't going anywhere. Time spent in line is time not spent in stores and restaurants. Fast passes are the single greatest thing to happen to the bottom line ever. If anything, they would expand this service I think.

    The problem I see with crowding is all about real estate. I freak out not when the lines are long, but when I can't protect my personal space. The only way to solve this is to either create more space for the physical bodies to occupy, or add more rides/attractions so that bodies can be more evenly distributed. The former being better than the latter.

    But Disneyland has a finite amount of space to work with. The property is simply too small for any progressive changes. So short of limiting how many people are let in to the park, we simply have to be patient for Disneyland to create more space or more rides for us to distribute ourselves in.
    As noted I personally think that there ARE issues with FP and Disney's aware of them - if FP were an unmitigated good thing for the park, we very likely would have seen an expansion to every ride in the park.

    Instead, they've reduced it to a handful of e-tickets and seasonal redos.

    I really do believe that FP has good aspects and that it does likely increase the bottom line to an extent - but I also believe that it's had some negative impact, and that is likely the reason why Disney's pulled back on the offering.
    Woo! Spring is coming!

  2. #17

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I really do believe that FP has good aspects and that it does likely increase the bottom line to an extent - but I also believe that it's had some negative impact, and that is likely the reason why Disney's pulled back on the offering.
    How have they pulled back though? They haven't taken any away.

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  3. #18

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshBakedDisney View Post
    How have they pulled back though? They haven't taken any away.
    Pirates was once a FP attraction.
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  4. #19

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Pirates was once a FP attraction.
    So were the Muppet and Bugs shows.
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  5. #20

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Pirates was once a FP attraction.
    I have no memory of this, but I'll take your word for it. But I thought you meant recently. Like in the last 5 years or so.

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  6. #21

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshBakedDisney View Post
    How have they pulled back though? They haven't taken any away.
    There have been a few - Buzz Lightyear, POTC had it for a while, HM had it originally for year round operations but now only uses it for NBC overlay etc., and originally the plan was touted as potentially having a wider scope.
    Woo! Spring is coming!

  7. #22

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I really do believe that FP has good aspects and that it does likely increase the bottom line to an extent - but I also believe that it's had some negative impact, and that is likely the reason why Disney's pulled back on the offering.
    AFAIK, WDW has FastPass on just about everything, down to the teacups.

    Not every attraction in the park in Disneyland needs FastPass. Many of the queues are routinely very short. If the line for Winnie the Pooh is only 10 minutes, there really isn't much value in taking a FP for it and reducing your wait to 5 minutes. There is a value in reducing your Space Mountain wait from, say, 90 minutes to 15.

    As far as I know, the only attractions they've removed FP from at Disneyland are the ones that truly didn't need it anymore: Pooh, Buzz Lightyear (and they gave those machines to another ride, Star Tours, so they just exchanged one FP attraction for another) and Pirates. And in the case of Pirates, from what I know it was a very short experiment that was deemed unnecessary. It isn't as though Pirates had FP for years and then they took it away.
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  8. #23

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    AFAIK, WDW has FastPass on just about everything, down to the teacups.

    Not every attraction in the park in Disneyland needs FastPass. Many of the queues are routinely very short. If the line for Winnie the Pooh is only 10 minutes, there really isn't much value in taking a FP for it and reducing your wait to 5 minutes. There is a value in reducing your Space Mountain wait from, say, 90 minutes to 15.

    As far as I know, the only attractions they've removed FP from at Disneyland are the ones that truly didn't need it anymore: Pooh, Buzz Lightyear (and they gave those machines to another ride, Star Tours, so they just exchanged one FP attraction for another) and Pirates. And in the case of Pirates, from what I know it was a very short experiment that was deemed unnecessary. It isn't as though Pirates had FP for years and then they took it away.
    As you note, they have it on nearly everything at WDW. I have doubts it's because everything in WDW has massive wait times necessitating FP, and suspect it's more because the extra bodies on the street are on a street constructed to hold more people than a similar spot in DL.

    I really believe that the FP machine was intended to be for as many rides as possible in as many parks as possible. They're as much as saying so with the successor program back East. My hope is that the lack of the same level of penetration out West is an acknowledgement and attempt to address street crowding and not simply a break to find a better way to monetize.
    Woo! Spring is coming!

  9. #24

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by micvicfaust View Post
    I am surprised that no one has taken into consideration that the population of Southern Ca. has grown considerably in the past 20 years and accounts for the overcrowding in many ways, 5 years ago you had 30 mil. in Ca. now it is getting closer to 40 mil and that does not include the rest of the states. I am not saying they all visit Disneyland, but it is something to factor into the equation when you talk about crowds...I am 60 and grew-up here and to me everything is crowed these day's.
    100% agree! I just posted basically this same idea, in the other thread about the park being overcrowded.
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  10. #25

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    With you on all of them but the last - the parks have a mandated attendance level, and how they get it is immaterial to the sharp pencils. No APs just means a return to "Buy a day at half price, get a second day at each park free" etc. - which would likely fill the parks even further with people who now view it not as "I'm making payments on a $700 pass" but "I just got into Disneyland for under $20 a day"
    One would think that sharp-pencil boys are looking at the revenue per guest as well as just the number of guests. Also, at profit per guest.

    Otherwise, they are mere dull-pencil boys.

    I would hope that "No AP Program" would mean a simple 50% off entry in the off-season. Keep it full-price high during summer and Christmas holidays. (This would also mean more refurbs in the off-season.)
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  11. #26

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Uncrowd Disneyland in 5 easy steps:

    1) Eliminate Fast Pass.....this will unclog walkways and get people back into queues.

    2) Eliminate ODV.......this will unclog walkways and encourage people to take a few extra minutes out of their day to sit down to eat...this will also reduce attraction queue length as a bonus.

    3) Stay open a bit later.......this will encourage many people to go back to their hotels during the hottest and busiest part of the day knowing that they can come back in the evening with plenty of time to see and do.

    4) Re-open shuttered attractions to swallow more crowds.....imagine how many guests the Peoplemover, Skyway, and The Tahitian Terrace could suck out of the general mob?? Even the motor and keel boats could help a little.

    5) For the love of Pete, RAISE the price of the AP(or eliminate it altogether)....Disneyland isn't supposed to be the neighborhood hangout....it's supposed to be someplace special
    You have those in the wrong order, bro.
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  12. #27

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    At the end of the day, Disney increasing park capacity will only result in them allowing more people into the parks.

    Wait times are dictated by the maximum amount of time people are willing to wait for an attraction. On busy days, the average wait for Space will always be over 90 minutes because that's what people have proven they are willing to wait for it. If it gets longer, people will stop joining the line, and if it gets shorter people checking their wait time apps and the wait time board in the hub will flock over.

    As an extension of this, I'm still not convinced Fastpass makes crowding worse. The standby queues are going to be as long as they are regardless (same number of people in them) and the attractions draw the same number of guests an hour. So, the fact that Disney is maxing out the standby line and also adding an extra shorter FP line means more people are in fact waiting in lines than they would be otherwise,

    So then, the only real way to reduce "crowding" is to eliminate bottle necks such as moving around ODV carts and reworking pathways and entrance/exists so that free flow can always exist. In a half-century+ old park, this is basically impossible though and events such as WOC, The Fireworks and Fantasmic! are basically guaranteed to overwhelm pathways. Excpecially because the pathways are the viewing locations.

  13. #28

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    One would think that sharp-pencil boys are looking at the revenue per guest as well as just the number of guests. Also, at profit per guest.

    Otherwise, they are mere dull-pencil boys.

    I would hope that "No AP Program" would mean a simple 50% off entry in the off-season. Keep it full-price high during summer and Christmas holidays. (This would also mean more refurbs in the off-season.)
    I have a suspicion that TDA is very aware of average guest spending. It's part of why I don't buy the anti-AP hype. If Disneyland could rely on a tourist only makeup and even reasonably suspected that they'd be more profitable, they'd have taken steps towards that goal rather than away from it.
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  14. #29

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Without getting into the AP/Tourist debate explicitly again, I'd like to discuss crowding at Disneyland and how we perceive it, as well as how to fix it.

    I'd first assumed that overcrowding was just something that happened, affected everything in the resort, and took it as a given that lately it's worse than ever.

    Then I saw someone's "worst" being an hour wait on Indy and a half hour for Pirates and another 45 for Space Mountain.

    I can't be alone in looking at those times and saying "Hmm. Sounds like a light day, honestly.". I have clear memories of days with two+ hour waits for any e-ticket in the park and most other rides pushing 30 minutes+. Days where the lines breached the queues, the extended queues, the stanchions quickly thrown out by CMs and would make a break for meeting the lines at KBF (I kid, barely).

    So... First question. Is overcrowding not what people feel it is?

    Are we simply reacting to the natural effects of Fastpass causing an increase in off-ride congestion? The *rides* don't seem to be holding the length of line they used to but are still consistently full most days, so it's not a further sloughing of rides per capita. Those people not in line have to exist *somewhere*

    Second, taking the assumption that regardless of where the park is specifically overcrowded is moot, it's still too many people, and also (mainly because there's another really long thread on the forums right now explicitly dealing with APs) let's leave HOW people got into the park out of it, this has nothing to do with ticket media and everything to do with the gross volume of people Disney jams into the park:

    How do you fix this?

    Attendance cap?

    More rides to increase Per Capita, thus pulling more people into the ride/queue system and off the streets for longer each day?

    Removal of FP?

    Level Anaheim North to the 91 and East to the 57 and build the biggest durned theme park any idjit ain't never gonna see?
    IF you want to make it less crowded you start by eliminating the things that make it more crowded or rather feel more crowded.

    FastPass must go. The way it works makes the park seem more crowded by taking out people from E-ticket ride lines. It also makes the E-ticket ride lines longer for anyone that doesn't have a FastPass. If you are in a spot that might have been a 1 hour wait in times without FastPass, with the FastPass bumping you that line is now closer to 1.25 hours. And all you got in the exchange for that is taking the people that would have been in line for an E-ticket ride somewhere else, be it a C-ticket line or just walking in the park, all they did was increase the time people wait elsewhere, increase the crowds in the parks non-line areas and make the lines move slower in the E-ticket rides....

    Next cut back on the things like Fantasmic, the parades and fireworks. These things create huge crowds of people for hours before the event even takes place. Does the park need 2 showings each night of Fantasmic? multiple parades? Or even nightly fireworks.... Save some money and eliminate the crowd magnets by rotating them... one night you get a Fantasmic, the next a parade, and then fireworks.... Now not only have you lowered the number of crowd magnates you have also created a reason for a customer to spend 3 days in the park instead of 1.

    And last but not least.... Raise the prices... Supply and demand says if you raise the prices higher the crowds will be reduced... or eliminate all multi-day tickets and passes and go to a single day only ticket model... Or better yet go back to the book of tickets for rides as they once had... Then you can price the E-ticket rides more and balance crowd control to specific rides. When a new Pirate movie comes out you ratchet up the price of that ride to control the lines.

  15. #30

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    At the end of the day, Disney increasing park capacity will only result in them allowing more people into the parks.

    Wait times are dictated by the maximum amount of time people are willing to wait for an attraction. On busy days, the average wait for Space will always be over 90 minutes because that's what people have proven they are willing to wait for it. If it gets longer, people will stop joining the line, and if it gets shorter people checking their wait time apps and the wait time board in the hub will flock over.

    As an extension of this, I'm still not convinced Fastpass makes crowding worse. The standby queues are going to be as long as they are regardless (same number of people in them) and the attractions draw the same number of guests an hour. So, the fact that Disney is maxing out the standby line and also adding an extra shorter FP line means more people are in fact waiting in lines than they would be otherwise,

    So then, the only real way to reduce "crowding" is to eliminate bottle necks such as moving around ODV carts and reworking pathways and entrance/exists so that free flow can always exist. In a half-century+ old park, this is basically impossible though and events such as WOC, The Fireworks and Fantasmic! are basically guaranteed to overwhelm pathways. Excpecially because the pathways are the viewing locations.
    Design at DCA definitely points to the walkway/viewing location issue - WOC is a decent stab at this.

    As to FP, I don't think it makes the overcrowding ACTUALLY worse - that would posit FP as an attendance driver and I really don't think the world at large cares about it enough for that - so much as during peak days it can make the *appearance* of crowding worse by exacerbating the gridlock in heavily impacted areas.

    In all seriousness, look at Adventureland on bad days. The addition of a hundred extra people in that area sometimes is the difference between getting through to Pirates or turning back to go around Frontierland. I don't lay that entirely at the feet of FP, but I can see a case for it contributing.
    Woo! Spring is coming!

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