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  1. #31

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    IF you want to make it less crowded you start by eliminating the things that make it more crowded or rather feel more crowded.

    FastPass must go. The way it works makes the park seem more crowded by taking out people from E-ticket ride lines. It also makes the E-ticket ride lines longer for anyone that doesn't have a FastPass. If you are in a spot that might have been a 1 hour wait in times without FastPass, with the FastPass bumping you that line is now closer to 1.25 hours. And all you got in the exchange for that is taking the people that would have been in line for an E-ticket ride somewhere else, be it a C-ticket line or just walking in the park, all they did was increase the time people wait elsewhere, increase the crowds in the parks non-line areas and make the lines move slower in the E-ticket rides....

    Next cut back on the things like Fantasmic, the parades and fireworks. These things create huge crowds of people for hours before the event even takes place. Does the park need 2 showings each night of Fantasmic? multiple parades? Or even nightly fireworks.... Save some money and eliminate the crowd magnets by rotating them... one night you get a Fantasmic, the next a parade, and then fireworks.... Now not only have you lowered the number of crowd magnates you have also created a reason for a customer to spend 3 days in the park instead of 1.

    And last but not least.... Raise the prices... Supply and demand says if you raise the prices higher the crowds will be reduced... or eliminate all multi-day tickets and passes and go to a single day only ticket model... Or better yet go back to the book of tickets for rides as they once had... Then you can price the E-ticket rides more and balance crowd control to specific rides. When a new Pirate movie comes out you ratchet up the price of that ride to control the lines.
    Some really good ideas here!

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  2. #32

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mind Tricks View Post
    I don't understand how eliminating FP would help overcrowding, wouldn't it make queues even longer because more people are forced to simply wait in line? Would someone mind elaborating? Thanks!
    Queues might be longer without fastpass... But the lines would move faster because you wouldn't have a string of fastpassers being bumped into it on a regular basis... Instead they would now be forced to stand in the queue and not go stand in another queue or open space before returning to jump into the head of the line. The sad fact is a Fastpass does let you get a couple more minor rides in a day, but that model only holds true if only some people use a fastpass... If everyone used it then the benefit would be reduced because the minor rides would be seeing more people going to them while waiting for the E-ticket fastpass ride... and considering how long lines have seemed to have gotten everyone seems to be using the fastpass. God help anyone that doesn't because your going to be getting much fewer rides than you would have if the fastpass had never been created.

  3. #33

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    Queues might be longer without fastpass... But the lines would move faster because you wouldn't have a string of fastpassers being bumped into it on a regular basis... Instead they would now be forced to stand in the queue and not go stand in another queue or open space before returning to jump into the head of the line. The sad fact is a Fastpass does let you get a couple more minor rides in a day, but that model only holds true if only some people use a fastpass... If everyone used it then the benefit would be reduced because the minor rides would be seeing more people going to them while waiting for the E-ticket fastpass ride... and considering how long lines have seemed to have gotten everyone seems to be using the fastpass. God help anyone that doesn't because your going to be getting much fewer rides than you would have if the fastpass had never been created.
    That wouldn't actually change crowding though. The attractions themselves are only able to x number of people per hour and people are only willing to wait so long. If FP lets you get in extra rides, it must therefor be at the expense of someone else because of this. Very few people just wander the park pathways for the scenery (and those doing it aren't likely doing it because of FP) so FP or not, the number of people using the pathways between attractions is roughly the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    [...]

    As to FP, I don't think it makes the overcrowding ACTUALLY worse - that would posit FP as an attendance driver and I really don't think the world at large cares about it enough for that - so much as during peak days it can make the *appearance* of crowding worse by exacerbating the gridlock in heavily impacted areas.

    In all seriousness, look at Adventureland on bad days. The addition of a hundred extra people in that area sometimes is the difference between getting through to Pirates or turning back to go around Frontierland. I don't lay that entirely at the feet of FP, but I can see a case for it contributing.
    But how? What is FP doing to make those people go out into the walkways? FP holders don't just take the ticket and wander the park until it becomes valid, they go do something else just like all of the other guests.

  4. #34

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    But how? What is FP doing to make those people go out into the walkways? FP holders don't just take the ticket and wander the park until it becomes valid, they go do something else just like all of the other guests.
    How do they get to that "something else" ?
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  5. #35

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I have a suspicion that TDA is very aware of average guest spending. It's part of why I don't buy the anti-AP hype. If Disneyland could rely on a tourist only makeup and even reasonably suspected that they'd be more profitable, they'd have taken steps towards that goal rather than away from it.
    Which they have by raising AP pricing.
    The Mickey audience is not made up of people; it has no racial, national, political, religious or social differences or affiliations; the Mickey audience is made up of parts of people, of that deathless, precious, ageless, absolutely primitive remnant of something in every world-wracked human being which makes us play with children’s toys and laugh without self-consciousness at silly things, and sing in bathtubs, and dream and believe that our babies are uniquely beautiful. You know…the Mickey in us.
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  6. #36

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    1. Raise prices
    2. Raise prices
    3. Raise prices
    The Mickey audience is not made up of people; it has no racial, national, political, religious or social differences or affiliations; the Mickey audience is made up of parts of people, of that deathless, precious, ageless, absolutely primitive remnant of something in every world-wracked human being which makes us play with children’s toys and laugh without self-consciousness at silly things, and sing in bathtubs, and dream and believe that our babies are uniquely beautiful. You know…the Mickey in us.
    -Walt Disney

  7. #37

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    That's exactly what I am saying!
    The same way every other guest does. The truth is that the pace that attraction exists output guests is the same regardless of how they gone in line. The amount of time spent in line doesn't necessarily mean more trips (the only legitimate extra trips ever made for FP are when people walk to the distribution machines).

    Even then, the case could be made that FP reduces pathway crowding by distributing guests waiting for their time to come to the lesser attractions and off of the paths. Its hard to know for sure, but for every speculation on one side, there is one for the other, so at the end of the day the math that shows that the attraction input/outputs are the same and the time an average guest will spend in a queue for each attraction has a maximum shows it can't have a huge effect on the equilibrium either way.

  8. #38

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    The same way every other guest does. The truth is that attraction exits put out the same number of guests to go do something else at the same pace regardless of how they gone in line. The amount of time spent in line doesn't necessarily mean more trips (the only extra trips ever made for FP are when people walk to the distribution machines).
    Attraction exits do put out the same number of people. Attraction exits plus fast pass distribution exits put out more.

    The simple fact is either Fast Pass does lower a guests overall wait time in the park or it does not.

    If it does, than that guests has to be somewhere. Either walking around(or to somewhere) or taking up a space in a shop, restaurant, bench, etc.

    If it does not, than what's the point of having Fast Pass?
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  9. #39

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
    Which they have by raising AP pricing.
    Please provide any reputable source - economic texts, actual market analysis, anything reputable - that shows the only reason to raise prices is to discourage purchasing.
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

  10. #40

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    Attraction exits do put out the same number of people. Attraction exits plus fast pass exits put out more.

    The simple fact is either Fast Pass does lower a guests overall wait time in the park or it does not.

    If it does, than that guests has to be somewhere. Either walking around(or to somewhere) or taking up a space in a shop, restaurant, bench, etc.

    If it does not, than what's the point of having Fast Pass?
    The capacity of an attraction is not affected in any way whatsoever by FP. Therefore, with or without it, the exit will see the same number of people leaving. There is no FP exit for an attraction. Because everyone is merged onto the same trains, planes, boats, cars, etc., the attraction throughput and output are steady.

    As to your second point, FP will likely distribute those guests not to paths or park benches (again, the average guest doesn't spend much time in those areas because they are jumping from attraction to attraction or store) but to high capacity rides like iasw or pirates or other lesser utilized attractions. It could be argued they wouldn't go there otherwise, meaning net zero or benefit to the crowding situation. Additionally, I've completely neglected meet-n-greets. I can see those as being another place people waiting for a FP might end up.

  11. #41

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    The capacity of an attraction is not affected in any way whatsoever by FP. Therefore, with or without it, the exit will see the same number of people leaving. There is no FP exit for an attraction.
    You misunderstood me. People have to go collect those fast passes and unless they can fly they must use the walkways to do so.

    Please address my question..........does fast pass reduce a guests wait time in the park or does it not. If it does, where do the guests spend that extra time and if it does not why do we even have FP?
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  12. #42

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Now I know this is never going to happen... but they could also eliminate the character Kiosks after a lot of the rides. I know they are trying to push some dollar tree junk that is somehow related to the ride you just got off of, but if you eliminated those kiosks you would have more open space...

  13. #43

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackster View Post
    Now I know this is never going to happen... but they could also eliminate the character Kiosks after a lot of the rides. I know they are trying to push some dollar tree junk that is somehow related to the ride you just got off of, but if you eliminated those kiosks you would have more open space...
    Hear, Hear
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  14. #44

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Please provide any reputable source - economic texts, actual market analysis, anything reputable - that shows the only reason to raise prices is to discourage purchasing.
    Al Lutz and others have wrote about it extensively, which I can find the articles later when I have time to do so if you wish. But if you want me to produce insider data that we don't have, well I can't, nor can you. What I can provide is the fact that the largest increases in AP pricing history happened for two years in a row.
    The Mickey audience is not made up of people; it has no racial, national, political, religious or social differences or affiliations; the Mickey audience is made up of parts of people, of that deathless, precious, ageless, absolutely primitive remnant of something in every world-wracked human being which makes us play with children’s toys and laugh without self-consciousness at silly things, and sing in bathtubs, and dream and believe that our babies are uniquely beautiful. You know…the Mickey in us.
    -Walt Disney

  15. #45

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    Re: Reducing Overcrowding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    But how? What is FP doing to make those people go out into the walkways? FP holders don't just take the ticket and wander the park until it becomes valid, they go do something else just like all of the other guests.
    This is where I wish I had access to the data Disneyland generates. Like I said, I don't believe it generates additional actual crowding - but my suspicion is that those who are using the FP are spending the time they'd normally be in line commuting from place to place on the streets, using other park services they'd normally be in line rather than using etc.

    Disneyworld's larger streets make this less of an issue, but with DL's rather claustrophobic choke points that also happen to be some of the higher concentrations of guests to begin with it makes the issue (IMO) more problematic.
    Credibility is to be sought for. Credulity is not. Sadly the latter is our normal human state.

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