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  1. #46

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    Sorry, but after reading all of the posts, I had to jump in and give my two cents…

    The Law:

    Despite any personal feelings, Disneyland remains private property. However, what most people are not taking into consideration is Disneyland is granting right of way and a temporary license by allowing guests admission for a fee. In most cases, such as a concert, they may eject people who are violating the law. As your passage onto the resort property is a revocable license (your passport), Disneyland must refund your money if they ask you to leave and do not intend to provide the services for which you contracted under the temporary license (passport).

    Guests who are violating clearly established rules and/or policy may be asked to leave, but should be offered a full refund. Although Disneyland may not always offer it, guests who are ejected for things such as giving a tour would be entitled to such and would probably prevail in a civil action to receive their admission price refunded. In the event that you violated the law (clearly this is not the case here) you would not be entitled to a refund.

    Once you are asked to leave (with or without a refund) you are considered trespassed and you are unable to return for a period of time. The expiration of the license (passport expires that day) should allow your return the following day unless they state otherwise and give a separate time period. The Anaheim Police, along with other departments around the globe, like to throw around a bunch of B.S. in the hopes that people will get scared and not make a big fuss. Disney may not offer a refund, and even though you are entitled to one, you should exit the property and resolve your claim via the courts.

    Despite what everyone here says, he has a right to sell his information (even if it is clearly wrong) when the transaction is conducted off of property. Once on property, Mr. Hill has every right to disseminate any information he chooses. He could not, and should not, sell tickets for a private tour on Disney property and then provide the tour following payment. The fact that he is selling information and not a good or product is what governs. The analogies of others in setting up shop in Wal-mart are invalid arguments as Mr. Hill is not selling Mickey Mouse Hats, but information.

    I always base my legal arguments by looking at it from both sides. If Disney charged a fee, and then arbitrarily threw people out of the park for giving tours, making comments they did not like, smelling like rotten eggs or anything else they just come up with, then they are creating a fraud by charging for a service they had no intention of providing. By refunding the money, and revoking the temporary license, they can kick anyone out.

    I understand why they would not want someone to conduct tours within Disneyland. However, the assertion from others that Mr. Hill has no first amendment claim because he is on private property is ridiculous. Disney will no doubt counter that they did not ask him to cease because of his comments, but because of his actions. An individuals first amendment rights exist even on private property as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others! You clearly could not scream “fire” inside of Splash Mountain causing those riding it to climb out seeking safety. Disney certainly could not tell you that speaking to your friend about the lack of maintenance in the park is cause for ejection from the property. We have all stood in line and heard morons talking about the loop they are adding to Space Mountain (I even heard it from a cast member). They simply can not infringe upon your right to free speech.

    My guess is that Mr. Hill was simply asked to stop and was not thrown out of the park. I am not a fan of Mr. Hill’s by any stretch of the imagination, but I think that Disneyland should also operate within the law and provide a refund if they ask him to leave.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrateslife4me84
    That man is an idiot. He thinks the First Amendment applies when you are inside a property owned by someone else? Not quite. Disneyland is a business and can therefore kick out anyone they want to for any reason--much like a restaurant manager can refuse to serve any individual. If I owned a business, I would very quickly kick anyone out who is offering services inside of my property that both takes money away from me and trashes my establishment. If Hill wanted to stand on Harbor Blvd. and tell people crap about Disneyland, then the 1st Amendment would apply.
    Exactly. Just like you can't bring in a cooler full of Cokes and try to sell them inside DL.

  3. #48

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    I haven't seen a single post from someone who was actually on the tour!

    Jim does charge a fee for his tour and you have to "buy" it in advance via his web-site. I don't think he is standing around Town Square "selling" tours. I would imagine that everyone who paid to be with Jim knew exactly what they were getting. If he sold his tours in advance, then it is no different than all the Japanese tour groups following some guy with a fly swatter flag.

    If he was in fact selling spots and collecting money on DL property then he was properly excused from the park.
    The Mur
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  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by themur
    Jim does charge a fee for his tour and you have to "buy" it in advance via his web-site. I don't think he is standing around Town Square "selling" tours. I would imagine that everyone who paid to be with Jim knew exactly what they were getting.
    But still, he's using DL property to gain a profit without their consent. All the while pretty much slandering the company. Do the japanese tour groups actually give informative tours, or simply walk people around the park to ride the rides because they can't speak english? There is a big difference with the two.
    It's like you having a dinner party and have one of your guests give everyone else a tour of your house because they paid for it earlier, and telling them that your house was asbestos ridden and they'll all get cancer from being there.

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaver
    I'd like to know what in what he was doing could be considered a criminal offence...
    Trespassing maybe? Its been said about 20 times in this thread. Disneyland is private property. Buying a ticket does not buy you rights to be there. It just means you are welcome onto the property till you are no longer welcome. Jim Hill, if he was banned, is no longer welcome on the property. That means if he visits Disneyland, he is trespassing.

    I also agree with the poster above that said Jim Hill may be a little biest on his side of the story. There could be some things he left out. I doubt Disney would not warn him a few times before this action took place and maybe Jim is not telling THAT part. But Disney is a company like any other. They exist to make money. If they don't make money, they don't exist. Disney sells tours, and Jim Hill's tours cut into Disney tours. Would Star Bucks let you hand out free coffee in there store? NO! Why would you expect Disney to allow something similar?

    Just the thought of someone setting up a small hibachi grill in the middle of McDonald's and giving out free burgers is kinda funny. The thought of McDonald's allowing it is even funnier. Also, if someone got sick off of one of those free burgers, they sue McDonald's. Not the guy giving the burgers. If Jim gave out false info, Disney would be responsible for letting it happen. So Disney is also just covering there backs.

    I'm sure Jim's tour was interesting and informative. But in this biz, you must adapt and I see he has. With good publicity, he can sell a lot of CD's. And being ASKED to stop is not nearly as good publicity as being forced to stop and then banned. Think of that?
    I am looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

    Gib

  6. #51

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    But who is Jim Hill?

    I realized what he did , but who is he?

    He sounds like a drama queen to me.
    Are we there Yet? :devil:

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrincessP
    But who is Jim Hill?

    I realized what he did , but who is he?

    He sounds like a drama queen to me.
    He's a nobody no-nothing that posts lies on his little website. Some people take his words as gospel...but he's nothing but a hack.

  8. #53

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    Hmm, as I stroke my chin. Does he have the "right" to say what he believes. Or is this a money issue. If he didn't charge, does Disney have a leg? My personal opinion, is that I go to DL for the dream. I don't want anyone to destroy it. I don't know who JH is, but I fought for the rights of everyone in our country. No one loves DL more than I. I guess it's like burning the american flag. I don't like it, but I served my country to protect the rights of flag burners too! Wow. I hate to side with a guy that rips my favorite place to shreds, but if he doesn't charge, then I have to reluctantly side with JH.


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  9. #54

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    As someone else pointed out with some REAL legal groundwork or research and not just guesswork; if he was selling tickets off property, and then conducting the tours Disney has little legal ground to stand on. Private property owners and businesses in particular have less legal protection than you think. That "right to refuse service" has been questioned on numerous occassions by the courts, often with people winning against the property owner; sometimes thats justified sometimes not. If Jim Hill was having people pay off property he really was within his rights, you could give a tour around walmart if you wanted to as long as no monitary transactions took place on the property. Frankly if Mr. Hill wanted to take this to court (and if he was indeed only selling outside of the parks) there is a pretty strong chance he could win. Thats all based on IF he was selling off property, and not disrupting the normal operations of the park, if he did either one of these, then yes Disney has every right to kick him out and revoke his AP (though technically as the other poster stated, in general businesses are supposed to refund you the money you spent.)

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Druggas
    Hmm, as I stroke my chin. Does he have the "right" to say what he believes. Or is this a money issue. If he didn't charge, does Disney have a leg?
    I would say yes, simply for the fact that it's their property and they ultimately have the final say on what can go on there. Yes they sell you a ticket to get in, but you better believe there are rules that apply to being in the park when you use that ticket. Even though Disney might get sued for kicking people out, isn't it thier legal right to decide this?

    He can say whever he wants outside the park, but he's on their property while he's in DL.

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigertail777
    Thats all based on IF he was selling off property,
    But why would this be any more acceptable? Can people sell or display DL pictures publically without having disney's permission? Can a local tv station show copyrighted disney material without their permission? If these aren't acceptable then how can someone sell supposed facts about DL in a tour that's on property without permission from disney?

  12. #57

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    Can people sell or display DL pictures publically without having disney's permission?
    umm you do know when you put something on a website its legally considered "published"? So when you put up those pictures without their permission on a website like oh I dont know... an avatar you are publically displaying without their permission.

    Legal stuff isnt as black and white as many people beleive, there are different exceptions to every rule. Under "fair use" there are a number of loopholes. How do you think fan magazines can get away with publishing the things they do without permission? (and yes most courts have upheld, most normal fanzine cases) Do you remember rock n roll comics from the 80's? They used the names and likenesses of bands and their members without permission weaving them into a fictictious autobiography every issue. New Kids on the Block sued them for their New kids issue, and Rock n Roll comics won under the fair use guidelines.

    Seen all of the copies of videos that people take of Disneyland selling on ebay? Disney cant really do anything about them because again they are fair use, and in this case Disney damns themselves by encouraging people to take photo and videos. If they were to ban one person, they would have to ban all for it to stand up in court under normal guidelines. The only NOT legal thing about those is if someone takes video of a attraction that specifically states you cannot like Tough to be a bug.

  13. #58

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    Man, who stirred up this hornet's nest? Let's just think happy thoughts!


    This has been a Filmways presentation dahling.

  14. #59

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    see the "sit and chat for awhile" thread for some chatting free of hornets
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  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey
    I didn't know he was actually CHARGING PEOPLE for the tour! Yikes! That makes it even worse!

    It's like going to Best Buy and bringing in your burnt DVDs and selling those to consumers as if it were the real deal all the while convienently avoiding telling people that you don't work for Best Buy. Of course Best Buy would kick you out and you'd probably get arrested.

    He was selling a product (the tour) on Disney property illegally. Disney had every right to tell him to knock it off.
    You pretty much said it all right there. JH being there and charging for his own tours would only take away from Disney's business. Example - a family shows up at DL and decides to take a tour. Jim Hill's tour is cheaper so they take his. However, had JH not been there soliciting his tour, that money would have gone into the Mouse's pocket, thus he is taking business from Disney on their own private property.

    I think a ban is way over the top and I don't even know if I believe that part, but I really think Disney had every right in the world to tell him to stop. When you're in Disneyland, you gotta follow Disney rules. And if Disney rules say that Jim Hill can't give private tours then, well, he can't.

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