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  1. #31

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristocat View Post
    There is a reason it is called a "costume" and not just "clothes." Why it's call "On Stage" and not just "work." Castmembers, once they step On Stage, become part of the illusion. They become the ordinary citizens of their extraordinary lands. They become part of what makes Disneyland magical; what was painstakingly Imagineered to be magical.

    We know that the magician is just doing tricks, not real magic. But we can choose not to Google "how to saw a woman in half." We can choose to leave the show awed by the illusion. When we see a Castmember in his costume at, say, the grocery store, we are forced to face the truth that it's all an act, all a facade, all fakery.

    And for me, countless others, and still-believing children, that's just plain lousy.
    I'm not convinced that either adults or "still-believing children" are significantly damaged by any of this. "Still-believing children" see Santa Claus on every street corner in December, yet still look forward to his visit on Xmas Eve. Adults should take a lesson, in my opinion.

    Additionally, I think CM behavior and attitude is the magic, not what they happen to be wearing. Policy changes that are not allowing the majority of CMs the luxury of time to get "into character" and subsequently "out" again, makes me think that Disney may feel that attitude is the magic, as well.

    Or they are just cheap knuckleheads. Or maybe both.

  2. #32

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Bah, humbug, Fo'c's'le Scrooge.
    I said it was lousy, not damaging. It's a bummer, not emotionally scarring.
    Still, I pay good money to see a great "Show" and raising the curtain early so I can see the actors getting into place is not at all great, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by All4dISNEY
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  3. #33

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    And "cheap knuckleheads" is right on the button, methinks.
    Quote Originally Posted by All4dISNEY
    Words hurt.

  4. #34

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristocat View Post
    Bah, humbug, Fo'c's'le Scrooge.
    I said it was lousy, not damaging. It's a bummer, not emotionally scarring.
    Still, I pay good money to see a great "Show" and raising the curtain early so I can see the actors getting into place is not at all great, IMO.
    People pay better money for backstage passes. Make-believe you are getting one at DL. Still think it's lousy?

  5. #35

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    I'm beginning to think you're lousy.

    I would have thought you'd be the first to point out the thematic problems with pirate breeches at Stater Bros.
    Quote Originally Posted by All4dISNEY
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  6. #36

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    The real problem is when you see a Disney CM in costume outside the park doing something that is not "family friendly." For example, what if you see two CM's sitting on a bench waiting for the bus and they are making out? Or worse, what if you see a CM in handcuffs getting busted for shoplifting or something like that? I am definitely not a fan. BUT, I support it anyway so that the CM's don't have to arrive at work 90 minutes before their shift starts.
    Disneyland Cast Member
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  7. #37

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Big D View Post
    I am definitely not a fan. BUT, I support it anyway so that the CM's don't have to arrive at work 90 minutes before their shift starts.
    If they are going to invest time changing into their work uniform anyway, what difference does it make whether they change at home or at work? The time to change is still invested either way.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  8. #38

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Hillchat View Post
    I didn't know that the "no facial hair" policy was changed. I don't care about beards, goatees, mustaches, long sideburns, etc. As long as the facial hair is groomed and clean, what's the big deal. Walt had a mustache and he was handsome!
    Consider it old school mentality, Hillchat.
    When I was a CM, the slightest amount of stubble got you sent backstage. The hair line touching your ears (or lower) could get you sent to the Cast Cutters backstage.
    And it was a policy that worked IMO. Things were cut and dry. There were no gray areas or questions about how you were to present.
    That went for the costume too. Disheveled costumes that did not fit, etc. could draw comment too.
    I had heard that when they went over to okaying facial hair, it would be monitored with manicured looking beards, mustaches, etc.
    From what I've seen though it's a mishmash of looks. From groomed to scraggly on some guys.
    As for Walt and his mustache, that is interesting, but kind of irrelevant in the end.
    He did have a small mustache.
    But he required his CMs not to have them. And that's what people came to expect.
    And I think that's why when they changed it, it took some getting used to.

  9. #39

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    If they are going to invest time changing into their work uniform anyway, what difference does it make whether they change at home or at work? The time to change is still invested either way.
    It takes significantly less time to just put on their costume at home than it would to have to go to costuming backstage at the park. The former probably takes two minutes; the latter could be as much as an hour because if the costumes were held at the park, it would involve going to a specific location backstage that is perhaps very far from their work station and perhaps waiting in line with many other CMs to get their costumes, then going somewhere to change.

    Not to mention that if there aren't any lockers available for CMs, there's nowhere for them to keep their street clothes once they've changed into their costumes. If they have a car, I suppose they could run back to the car to divest themselves of their street clothes, but is that another hour on the shuttle to get to their vehicle and back? There's the 90 minutes right there: 30 to get the costume from the Wardrobe office and change; 30 to get back to their car to put their street clothes away and another 30 to get back to work, assuming the shuttle ONLY takes a half hour. Plus whatever time it takes to get over to costuming. And many CMs ride the bus so this doesn't even apply.
    Last edited by Malina; 03-14-2014 at 02:01 AM.
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  10. #40

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    And again, I think that if these CMs and their costumes are supposed to be like theatrical performers with their costumes, Disney needs to do what theaters and films do: a) compensate the CMs for the time they're backstage getting into costume (ie, not require them to do that off the clock); b) give them a place to securely lock up their things backstage. You'd never see a Broadway performer forced to run back to his car in costume because he doesn't have a dressing room to keep his street clothes.
    Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

  11. #41

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by CASurfer65 View Post
    Consider it old school mentality, Hillchat.
    When I was a CM, the slightest amount of stubble got you sent backstage. The hair line touching your ears (or lower) could get you sent to the Cast Cutters backstage.
    And it was a policy that worked IMO. Things were cut and dry. There were no gray areas or questions about how you were to present.
    That went for the costume too. Disheveled costumes that did not fit, etc. could draw comment too.
    I had heard that when they went over to okaying facial hair, it would be monitored with manicured looking beards, mustaches, etc.
    From what I've seen though it's a mishmash of looks. From groomed to scraggly on some guys.
    As for Walt and his mustache, that is interesting, but kind of irrelevant in the end.
    He did have a small mustache.
    But he required his CMs not to have them. And that's what people came to expect.
    And I think that's why when they changed it, it took some getting used to.
    Good point! Hmmm, now I'm trying to remember if I even saw any male cast members with facial hair during my last trip. Maybe the singing pirates outside POTC?

  12. #42

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    And again, I think that if these CMs and their costumes are supposed to be like theatrical performers with their costumes, Disney needs to do what theaters and films do:
    You really can’t compare the person ringing up my turkey sandwich at Hungry Bear to a costumed performer in a Broadway show. That is devaluing the talent that goes in to performing in the theatre and I’m sure a real performer would take being compared to a simple cashier as a demeaning remark.

    These people are uniformed service workers. “Cast Member” is just a cute name for “employee”, and “costume” is just a cute name for “uniform”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    a) compensate the CMs for the time they're backstage getting into costume (ie, not require them to do that off the clock);
    Companies don’t pay their employees for the time it takes to get into their uniforms. Why should the cashiers at the Emporium be compensated for the time it takes to change into their uniform when the cashiers at Target don’t get paid to change into their red and khaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    b) give them a place to securely lock up their things backstage. You'd never see a Broadway performer forced to run back to his car in costume because he doesn't have a dressing room to keep his street clothes.
    Again, I wouldn’t compare service employees to Broadway performers, but I do agree they should have a place to lock up their stuff if needed. While I don’t think they should be given permanent lockers as that would require a lot of locker space for all the employees to have their own, I do think that there should be enough for the number of people working during the day to have a place to lock up their stuff if they bring their own lock.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  13. #43

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    You really can’t compare the person ringing up my turkey sandwich at Hungry Bear to a costumed performer in a Broadway show. That is devaluing the talent that goes in to performing in the theatre and I’m sure a real performer would take being compared to a simple cashier as a demeaning remark.

    These people are uniformed service workers. “Cast Member” is just a cute name for “employee”, and “costume” is just a cute name for “uniform”.
    I am not the one who originally drew the comparison. Over and over again in this threads there have been comments about how the CMs are "onstage," how they are "cast members," how "you wouldn't see a dancer in the lobby in costume before a show," how seeing them outside of the berm in costume breaks the magic...is serving you a turkey sandwich or operating a ride really magical, or is it "service work?"

    I'd also argue that certain roles, such as the Jungle Cruise skips and the ToT elevator bellhops, actually are putting on a performance, are required to memorize scripts like any other performer - and the people playing those roles are often actors themselves.

    Regardless, you can't have it both ways. If the CMs are supposed to be performers, or cast members, et al, they need to be treated like that. If you really think they're no different than the grunts at Starbucks or Target who wear uniforms, then this conversation is moot, and one has to accept the fact that they're going to see CMs outside the berm in their uniforms going about their day.

    Companies don’t pay their employees for the time it takes to get into their uniforms. Why should the cashiers at the Emporium be compensated for the time it takes to change into their uniform when the cashiers at Target don’t get paid to change into their red and khaki?
    Because we're talking about a considerable expenditure of time, not five minutes in the company locker room. And as mentioned, in certain fields where the costume is an integral part of the "magic," the employees most certainly do get paid for the time they spend in preparation.

    As an example, the employees at things like Halloween horror nights and cornfields, who might be doing nothing more than ringing you up or checking your ticket, also have their costume and makeup time worked into their scheduled hours because it's significant. Another example: when I was in college I spent one Christmas season working as an elf in a Santa meet and greet. I was not an actor; I was just expected to be nice to the kids and guide them to see Santa. My elf costume was at the store, and I put it, and my special elf makeup, on AFTER I clocked in - not before. I was not expected to use my own time for that.

    Again, I wouldn’t compare service employees to Broadway performers, but I do agree they should have a place to lock up their stuff if needed. While I don’t think they should be given permanent lockers as that would require a lot of locker space for all the employees to have their own, I do think that there should be enough for the number of people working during the day to have a place to lock up their stuff if they bring their own lock.
    Exactly. In a lot of places you can bring your own lock, or take a key from the employee lounge, and take a locker for the day. It's yours for the time you're working that shift and then it is vacated. If Disney isn't even offering that, as far as I am concerned, we can't blame the CMs one bit for not changing at the park, regardless of anything else. Nobody should have to leave their clothes/etc. out and unsecured while they're working.
    Last edited by Malina; 03-14-2014 at 10:58 AM.
    Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

  14. #44

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    I am not the one who originally drew the comparison. Over and over again in this threads there have been comments about how the CMs are "onstage," how they are "cast members," how "you wouldn't see a dancer in the lobby in costume before a show," how seeing them outside of the berm in costume breaks the magic..
    Regardless of whomever originally drew the comparison, it is demeaning to the people who actually take the time to hone their craft to compare them to someone who just punches keys on a cash register all day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    .is serving you a turkey sandwich or operating a ride really magical, or is it "service work?"
    It’s service work. Yes there are some who go out of their way to provide excellent service, but it is still just service work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    I'd also argue that certain roles, such as the Jungle Cruise skips and the ToT elevator bellhops, actually are putting on a performance, are required to memorize scripts like any other performer - and the people playing those roles are often actors themselves.
    While there is definitely more effort put into those roles, I wouldn’t consider it acting. Not at the same level as someone who performs in a play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Regardless, you can't have it both ways. If the CMs are supposed to be performers, or cast members, et al, they need to be treated like that.
    They aren’t. As I said above, these people are uniformed service workers and the term “Cast Member” is just a cute name for “employee”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    If you really think they're no different than the grunts at Starbucks or Target who wear uniforms, then this conversation is moot, and one has to accept the fact that they're going to see CMs outside the berm in their uniforms going about their day.
    It is exactly the same as uniformed employees of any retail establishment where day to day employees aren’t expected to be compensated for putting on a uniform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Because we're talking about a considerable expenditure of time, not five minutes in the company locker room. And as mentioned, in certain fields where the costume is an integral part of the "magic," the employees most certainly do get paid for the time they spend in preparation.
    How much time does it take for the person selling corn dogs to get into their work outfit? I doubt it is a considerable amount of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    As an example, the employees at things like Halloween horror nights and cornfields, who might be doing nothing more than ringing you up or checking your ticket, also have their costume and makeup time worked into their scheduled hours because it's significant.
    The horror night thing is something different. The specific make up cannot be applied at home. If it is actually true that they are paid for their time to get into their make-up, it is understandable because it is an extra burden that the company placed on their employees . This is far different than the average Tomorrowland churro vendor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Another example: when I was in college I spent one Christmas season working as an elf in a Santa meet and greet. I was not an actor; I was just expected to be nice to the kids and guide them to see Santa. My elf costume was at the store, and I put it, and my special elf makeup, on AFTER I clocked in - not before. I was not expected to use my own time for that.
    The exception does not make the rule. It was something nice that the Elf Company did. It is definitely not the norm in the service industry.
    "You can cut me off from the civilized world. You can incarcerate me with two moronic cellmates. You can torture me with your thrice daily swill, but you cannot break the spirit of a Winchester. My voice shall be heard from this wilderness and I shall be delivered from this fetid and festering sewer."

  15. #45

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    Re: Costumes Outside the Park

    Quote Originally Posted by calsig31 View Post
    It’s service work. Yes there are some who go out of their way to provide excellent service, but it is still just service work.
    If it's service work, then it shouldn't bother you to see the CMs in costume outside the berm, any more than it would bother you to see a Target, Ralphs or Starbucks employee outside work in their uniforms. They're just service employees and not part of the magic, right?

    It is exactly the same as uniformed employees of any retail establishment where day to day employees aren’t expected to be compensated for putting on a uniform.

    How much time does it take for the person selling corn dogs to get into their work outfit? I doubt it is a considerable amount of time.
    That's already been explained above - it's NOT the same amount of time. It's much more, because that person has to go all the way over to costuming, all the way back to their car to put their street clothes away, and then over to their work station. And then at the end of the shift they'd have to do the same in reverse. That could take literally hours before and after the person's shift. It's not the same as pulling a costume out of your locker and being on your way in five minutes, as a Target employee does.

    The horror night thing is something different. The specific make up cannot be applied at home. If it is actually true that they are paid for their time to get into their make-up, it is understandable because it is an extra burden that the company placed on their employees . This is far different than the average Tomorrowland churro vendor.
    This IS an extra burden, because of the time logistics spent above. Do you honestly think it's fair to expect employees to spend an extra hour/90 minutes at both ends of their shift to retrieve their costumes and return them? You're talking about adding between 90 minutes and three hours to their workday, unpaid.
    Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

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