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  1. #211

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    I'm not arguing that it happens. I'm arguing that it's particularly likely that, given an option during remodeling to meet internal safety requirementswhich provided them with a chance to *avoid* that kind of attention they went for it rather than opt for an evacuation plan involving cherrypickers ON ALICE. Saying that Alice = Monorail is simply specious.

    Unless you're arguing that somehow Disney *prefers* or even *should* prefer an incident that involves pulling people out with evacuation equipment?
    I'm saying its a viable method for the extreme corner case for when a vehicle would be immobilized and that the 'fear' of seeing people being evacuated is being overly dramatic because Disney has repeatedly relied upon this method over the years.
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  2. #212

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Unloading people via a lift is just no big deal - we've done it with our monorail in Seattle a number of times and nobody was scarred emotionally. Nor did it affect the popularity of the conveyance or seam to cause the city any kind of embarrassment*.
    I think we're over thinking this and Disney being so afraid of having people evacuated that way. I just don't think they're all that concerned that it's going to somehow tarnish the park or most importantly, effect them monetarily in any way.

    *They were embarrassed after two trains jammed together while trying to pass on adjacent tracks. The city had to sheepishly explain that they'd moved the tracks closer together during another construction project.

  3. #213

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Well... I'm baffled... from all the complaints I was reading I thought the rail changes to Alice interfered with the view and fenced in the outdoor side of the ride... nothing like that .....

    I thought it was all very attractive, more colorful, presented a better continuation of the exterior theme....

    inside I particularly liked the flying card behind the Queen
    thought the new features were great!

  4. #214

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    I'm saying its a viable method for the extreme corner case for when a vehicle would be immobilized and that the 'fear' of seeing people being evacuated is being overly dramatic because Disney has repeatedly relied upon this method over the years.
    But I'm not saying that they *can't*. I'm saying that the idea that they would deliberately opt for the large spectacle of bringing a cherry picker in and manually evacuating a dark ride in the heart of Disneyland is not something I believe they would consider strongly.

    They were given the option to provide for a walking exit in anticipation of the rare chance they needed to evacuate the ride. Why would they have opted for the cherry picker version? Why would they willingly broadcast to the world that this is the only way to get off Alice in case of emergency when a much simpler, less impactful way to handle the situation was a natural outgrowth of a project they were working on anyway?
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  5. #215

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Apparently the "large lift" method isn't a big deal to them as that's what they used in WDW during a recent monorail evac.

  6. #216

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    Apparently the "large lift" method isn't a big deal to them as that's what they used in WDW during a recent monorail evac.
    So you contend that using a cherry picker, shutting down the walkways necessary to drive it from offstage to wherever the ride is onstage, then manually plucking guests one at a time in a large, lengthy spectacle is superior to simply having a CM open the door to the ride vehicle and walk them off the ride?

    I just can't believe that this would be Disney's *preferred* option. On rides like the Monorail they made the choice some time ago that with the ride system in place, the infrequent levels of evacuations needed combined with the positives the ride represented were worth the risk that they would occasionally need a rather spectacular evacuation. Adding in a manual evacuation route at that point becomes a near logistical impossibility for this ONE ride. I just can't believe that this is the PREFERRED way Disney would do things for a ride with a drastically less dramatic and guest-impacting option available. It doesn't make sense.
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  7. #217

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    So you contend that using a cherry picker, shutting down the walkways necessary to drive it from offstage to wherever the ride is onstage, then manually plucking guests one at a time in a large, lengthy spectacle is superior to simply having a CM open the door to the ride vehicle and walk them off the ride?

    I just can't believe that this would be Disney's *preferred* option. On rides like the Monorail they made the choice some time ago that with the ride system in place, the infrequent levels of evacuations needed combined with the positives the ride represented were worth the risk that they would occasionally need a rather spectacular evacuation. Adding in a manual evacuation route at that point becomes a near logistical impossibility for this ONE ride. I just can't believe that this is the PREFERRED way Disney would do things for a ride with a drastically less dramatic and guest-impacting option available. It doesn't make sense.
    I think both methods will be used, and provide Disney with an option to help guests off the ride during emergencies. This makes sense to me.
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  8. #218

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    The intertwining of vines imagery is a cool way to provide safety railing. Although the track was better off left alone and Cal OSHA should curtail it's nitpicky regulation creation/enforcement, Disney creatives have overcome the bureaucratic overreach.
    Last edited by Ride Warrior; 07-15-2014 at 02:33 PM.
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  9. #219

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by Ride Warrior View Post
    The intertwing of vines imagery is a cool way to provide safety railing. Although the track was better off left alone and Cal OSHA should curtail it's nitpicky regulation creation/enforcement, Disney creatives have overcome the bureaucratic overreach.
    Sorry, just a minor correction - OSHA's involvement in this project was an offhand comment made during the Space Mountain worker incident process. There was no action requiring Disney to remodel the leaf structure, this and the rest of the walkway railings (other than the SM rebuild, which WAS part of a response to an OSHA investigation) that have popped up are an internal initiative. OSHA is reactive, and any account I've read has no further mention of OSHA's involvement beyond that initial comment as they were walking through the park.

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  10. #220

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Sorry, just a minor correction - OSHA's involvement in this project was an offhand comment made during the Space Mountain worker incident process. There was no action requiring Disney to remodel the leaf structure, this and the rest of the walkway railings (other than the SM rebuild, which WAS part of a response to an OSHA investigation) that have popped up are an internal initiative. OSHA is reactive, and any account I've read has no further mention of OSHA's involvement beyond that initial comment as they were walking through the park.

    Like it or no, it's Disney's baby in every form.
    OSHA handled the Space Mountain worker incident well. Apparently Disney overreacted to OSHA's babblings about the Alice outdoor tracks. Fortunately the horticultural looking rails look nie enough, but this is a case of Disney suits entering the world of a reactionary "Alice in Blunderland".
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  11. #221

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    So you contend that using a cherry picker, shutting down the walkways necessary to drive it from offstage to wherever the ride is onstage, then manually plucking guests one at a time in a large, lengthy spectacle is superior to simply having a CM open the door to the ride vehicle and walk them off the ride?



    I just can't believe that this would be Disney's *preferred* option. On rides like the Monorail they made the choice some time ago that with the ride system in place, the infrequent levels of evacuations needed combined with the positives the ride represented were worth the risk that they would occasionally need a rather spectacular evacuation. Adding in a manual evacuation route at that point becomes a near logistical impossibility for this ONE ride. I just can't believe that this is the PREFERRED way Disney would do things for a ride with a drastically less dramatic and guest-impacting option available. It doesn't make sense.
    My contention is not that the picker is preferable but that it's acceptable. I don't see the need to clutter up the tracks with cat walks and railing for something that happens so rarely and it's clear Disney shares the same philosophy. It could indeed be Disneys preferred method because it turns the rescue and arguably its liabilities over to the professionals - the fire dept.
    I appreciate your desire for a more elegant solution, I mean I really do* but it's just not necessary nor would it have any kind of payback to the corp.

    *My idea would be a custom made vehicle(s) that Disney would bring out and simple have a rising platform or adjustable stairs to evac. folks. But it's not really needed either and there's no payback.

  12. #222

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    My contention is not that the picker is preferable but that it's acceptable. I don't see the need to clutter up the tracks with cat walks and railing for something that happens so rarely and it's clear Disney shares the same philosophy. It could indeed be Disneys preferred method because it turns the rescue and arguably its liabilities over to the professionals - the fire dept.
    I appreciate your desire for a more elegant solution, I mean I really do* but it's just not necessary nor would it have any kind of payback to the corp.

    *My idea would be a custom made vehicle(s) that Disney would bring out and simple have a rising platform or adjustable stairs to evac. folks. But it's not really needed either and there's no payback.
    There's a LOT of payback to providing a walkoff solution in case of need.

    Start with reduced downtime for the ride and reduced disruption to the area in case the ride needs to be cleared. Now instead of potentially waiting for an emergency vehicle to enter from backstage, making it's way through potentially extremely congested streets and shutting down very likely at *least* one if not more other attractions, waiting for each individual rider to be plucked from their car, going through the restart protocols for every ride that went down after the rides are cleared to reopen, waiting for the rescue vehicle to make it's way BACK out after what is most likely a prolonged operation...? Now they just send a CM along the track to the affected vehicles, let them out, escort them out of the ride and begin diagnosing the single attraction affected by the entire outage.

    One involves at the very *least* shutting down the teacups and disrupting park operations over around a quarter of the park for a prolonged period of time. The other allows the single ride affected to be the ONLY ride affected and gets the customers out of the building quickly and efficiently so they may begin to work on what went wrong and getting the ride back online.

    I'm not sure I consider the former "acceptable" when the latter is on the table. The disruption and public spectacle alone should make that level of evacuation protocol something they only call out when absolutely no other reasonable choice existed.
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  13. #223

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    We just don't see it the same Bob. I don't consider it a spectacle and shutting down other rides in the area isn't that objectionable to me either as it's done all the time for various reasons including medical emergencies and even parades. Apparently Walt Disney felt the same way or he would have come up with his own method to evac the Monorail.
    I guess this is more objectionable to you and I understand that but the evidence suggests Disney is (or was) not concerned.

  14. #224

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    We just don't see it the same Bob. I don't consider it a spectacle and shutting down other rides in the area isn't that objectionable to me either as it's done all the time for various reasons including medical emergencies and even parades. Apparently Walt Disney felt the same way or he would have come up with his own method.
    I guess this is more objectionable to you and I understand that but the evidence suggests Disney is (or was) not concerned.
    Alright, we'll leave it at that. There's no way to see eye to eye on this.
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  15. #225

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    Re: Alice in Wonderland Safety Rails

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    We just don't see it the same Bob. I don't consider it a spectacle and shutting down other rides in the area isn't that objectionable to me either as it's done all the time for various reasons including medical emergencies and even parades. Apparently Walt Disney felt the same way or he would have come up with his own method to evac the Monorail.
    I guess this is more objectionable to you and I understand that but the evidence suggests Disney is (or was) not concerned.
    Curious... how do they evacuate the monorail? Has it ever happened?

    my idea of a minor nightmare.... like the Knott's riders stuck on the top of a tower for, was it, four hours? no shade.. no water.. no ladies room.... no entertainment..... let's face it.. nothing your fellow riders have to say would be interesting by that time... so... how do we exit the monorail? giant slide?

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