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  1. #16

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Ticket Books also slowed down the pace of the park.

    I think Elaine explains the pre vs post-ticket book Disneyland Park best even though she's not actually talking about Disney.....

    The profound words can be found @ 10:50.......

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  2. #17

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    So basically "overcrowding" meaning "overcrowding"... ok

    Meaning attractions that were down now coming back online. Indy tanks, everything around it becomes a cluster for 20 minutes as the lines pour out and the crowd dissipates. That has 0 to do with utilization as it would a maintenance issue.

    This would either be a staffing or maintenance issue. An example of staffing would be a people who called in sick thereby not giving the attraction a full crew or in VERY rare circumstances not be scheduled a full crew (typically happens in off season or during evening changeover on a day believed to be "slow"). Again not an efficiency issue as the ride efficiency is directly affected by either broken vehicles or lack of staffing. I will give you one concession here... if a Lead ER's some of the crew and then a major attraction takes a dive (IE Jungle ER's, then Indy tanks 30 minutes later). But again, Jungle's ER would be based on a lack of demand, and Indy being down would be maintenance.

    Again, no demand, shops close, if anything that is being efficient.

    Actually the "real" conversation should be about traffic patterns and not about ride efficiency. More specifically the fact that AP's show up on weekdays when shifts are traditionally changing over to a smaller night shift crew. The staffing levels and the park in general operated on the premise that you show up, you spend the day, you go home. It wasn't designed to take into account an "afternoon rush". THAT is where efficiency comes into play and it is impossible to account for. You can't schedule a full crew for an afternoon flood on an otherwise slow day... just like you can't schedule a full crew based on the assumption a nearby ride will take a dive.

    If you want to get into the conversation about overall park traffic patterns and the narrowness of Adventureland, that situation develops in 1 of 3 ways.

    1. it's an overcrowded day (self explanatory).
    2. shows about to start or just ended (Fantasmic or Parades take your pick).
    3. something took a dive (Indy and Pirates being the worst culprits for Adventure.
    Being able to on-the-spot accommodate isn't the issue so much as the issue of demand for E and the wait reaching a point it causes complaint not translating to those complaining moving to an option that *isn't* jammed. I'm reasonably certain both TDA and the average guest would be happiest with everything in the park operating at full capacity all day long - that would signify likely shorter overall waits paradoxically, as it would move a large amount of people out of the heavily impacted attractions and instead have them on the attractions that don't normally operate at full capacity, in stores that would have closed early, etc.

    THAT is what I refer to as a "utilization issue". Everyone wants to use the same thing and not enough people are willing to go with the options that relieve the demand? It's a problem, and I'm pretty sure the one that most people are unconsciously complaining about when they complain about park overcrowding issues. Ticket books were one way to ration the "high end" experiences and strongly encourage experiencing the remainder of the park. If people really want shorter waits for E ticket attractions, something has to be done to change how the current customer base utilizes the park.
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  3. #18

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Even if the exchange were restricting the number of E tickets in a day in exchange for your wait for them being radically reduced?
    Absolutely.
    Even if it meant I'd never have to wait more than ten minutes for any ride ever again.
    This kind of cheap "carnival" type of atmosphere would destroy the experience.
    And yes, I know it used to be that way and it sucked. That's one of the main reasons my family went a couple of times in the sixties and then I didn't return until decades later. A ticketless system keeps one in the Disney mindset whereas constantly dealing with tickets/money stinks of "common" venues and kills the surreal mood Disney works so hard to set.

  4. #19

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Nope. Ticket books were not enjoyable when I was young, and they would be worse now. The system is not broken now, it just encourages too many people to attend than the patience of attendees will tolerate.

    The argument that guests buy more when lines are long is specious at best. When lines are long, the time is spent in lines - increasing frustration. Why spend time in a shop when you have wasted too much time already in lines? I know I tend to make most of my purchase on days when attendance is down and lines are short. Then there is no worry that I will not have time to ride the things I want, so shopping is more fun. (and I tend to spend more)

    Ticket books would increase my frustration level to a point where I would be less inclined to attend, let alone spend time and money in a shop. Tickets in this economy is a non-starter.


    Quote Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
    Absolutely.
    Even if it meant I'd never have to wait more than ten minutes for any ride ever again.
    This kind of cheap "carnival" type of atmosphere would destroy the experience.
    And yes, I know it used to be that way and it sucked. That's one of the main reasons my family went a couple of times in the sixties and then I didn't return until decades later. A ticketless system keeps one in the Disney mindset whereas constantly dealing with tickets/money stinks of "common" venues and kills the surreal mood Disney works so hard to set.
    ScottG you are indeed a truthteller. I agree wholeheartedly.







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  5. #20

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    I think FP already sort of accomplishes what you want. No one, no matter how savvy, can get a FP for all rides. But the limited FP possible does give the majority of people the choice to prioritize the rides they consider most important. Like I always get an Indy and/or Space pass. But I will never waste one on BTMRR or Splash regardless of the heat. Others seem to absolutely LOVE thunder so they get a pass for that. Over at DCA I get one for tower of terror and thats it.

    FP gives us the ability to guarantee easy access to our favorite rides. It provides the kind of order and discretion that you would get from ticket books. Add in the possibility of FP+ and it gets even better, especially for those most affected from crowds. Ever since FP, lines have never really bothered me. I get to prioritize what I want and "wait and see" the ones I'm less interested in.
    In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

  6. #21

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Hey Bob Weaver, could you please expand on the joy of ticket books in the 60s?

  7. #22

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    There is no chance of ticket books happening. If they did, the backlash about Disney being so greedy would finally bubble over. They would still have to charge high admission or the parks will be overrun with people. They would then have to charge pretty high prices for tickets to have any effect on shortening the lines. For people who go on the E Ticket rides, a day at the parks would be significantly more expensive. What we may get at some point is paid fast passes.

  8. #23

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    I want to ride Splash three times in a row, first thing in the morning. After that drenching I will stand in line for the other ROA E's. how many tickets do I have left?

    Fastpass before window enforcement. I collected them to use in the late evening hours

    Fastpass after window enforcement. With my early morning touring plans, I only collect two, Indy and thunder, for the entire day. By the time I am ready to return to lodging at noon the FP windows are useless and when I return at 6:00 the passes are gone.

    So as a wise veteran visitor it would make great sense to have E tickets all day to eliminate the fast pass window problem I created with my specific touring plans. But why should I be punished continuously riding an empty morning splash?

    What if rides are ticketless until a wait time is reached and then at that point tickets are required.

  9. #24

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Each ticket was your key to magic!

  10. #25

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    I am one, who gets to the parks early, rarely ever grabs fastpasses, and for the most part always get on my favorite rides at some time during my usual 5 days in the parks. There's always plenty to do, and see to make me happy during my visit. Sure it's crowded, but as a solo traveler, I have learned to ignore the downside of that condition.

  11. #26

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Being able to on-the-spot accommodate isn't the issue so much as the issue of demand for E and the wait reaching a point it causes complaint not translating to those complaining moving to an option that *isn't* jammed. I'm reasonably certain both TDA and the average guest would be happiest with everything in the park operating at full capacity all day long - that would signify likely shorter overall waits paradoxically, as it would move a large amount of people out of the heavily impacted attractions and instead have them on the attractions that don't normally operate at full capacity, in stores that would have closed early, etc.
    Again I fail to see when Disney attractions aren't operating at full capacity during the peak season (which until recently also coincided with the highest attendance and the most complaints about overcrowding). The only circumstances I can logically offer are either staffing or maintenance based. Staffing is rarely the issue. Maintenance is unavoidable, machines break, it happens, they fix it and get it back online. No attraction wants to operate at reduced capacity for a prolonged period of time.

    That said in non-peak season there is less staffing because there is less of a projected demand. If the morning attendance isn't what was expected (lowered for example) then many attractions will cut people loose early to save on labor. If there's a "flood" in the afternoon/evening, the night shift may not have enough staff to deal with it and you will see a reduced capacity situation. There is no way to predict an afternoon rush. The alternative is to run a full crew the entire day and "waste" labor hours which contributes to a higher overhead... not efficient from a business standpoint. If Indy got to the point where they're sending half empty cars consistently and the line is a walk on they will start pulling jeeps. If BTM sees the line "running" through the queue they'll pull a train vs risking a complete ride cascade by trying to juggle what isn't needed. Now... if an attraction goes down AFTER other rides have gone reduced and sent people home then yes you'll have a crowd... but again the culprit is an unplanned maintenance issue.

    So with all of that said I would prefer that you provide a specific issue where any attraction is purposely running at a reduced capacity when the park has high attendance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinrar View Post
    I think FP already sort of accomplishes what you want. No one, no matter how savvy, can get a FP for all rides. But the limited FP possible does give the majority of people the choice to prioritize the rides they consider most important. Like I always get an Indy and/or Space pass. But I will never waste one on BTMRR or Splash regardless of the heat. Others seem to absolutely LOVE thunder so they get a pass for that. Over at DCA I get one for tower of terror and thats it.

    FP gives us the ability to guarantee easy access to our favorite rides. It provides the kind of order and discretion that you would get from ticket books. Add in the possibility of FP+ and it gets even better, especially for those most affected from crowds. Ever since FP, lines have never really bothered me. I get to prioritize what I want and "wait and see" the ones I'm less interested in.
    At the risk of derailing the ENTIRE thread, Fastpass creates an efficiency issue. Fastpass forces all FP attractions to reserve an extra portion of the queue to ensure those holding a Fastpass have a wait that is 15 minutes or shorter. On attractions like Indy this causes a massive line outside as Guests are "held" to ensure that inside is 15 minutes or less.

    In addition to that, the way the majority of individuals utilize Fastpass causes already inflated lines to become that much longer. The intent was for individuals to get a Fastpass and then go shopping, or dining etc. The reality is that most people get a Fastpass, then go stand in a Standby line and wait for the Fastpass window. They are effectively standing in 2 lines at the same time, efficient for the Guest, additional line capacity for the attraction itself to now try to absorb! But there's MORE. Fastpass encourages longer wait times. People actively seek out longer times because they have an investment in that time. It's no longer seen as "wasting time" because they "have x minutes before we can use this Fastpass anyways". Without that incentive people won't wait as long... I've seen it first hand over and over again.

    Adventureland was also mentioned as a difficult, narrow area. What wasn't mentioned were the individuals who wait around next to Indy for the last 10-15 minutes before they hit their Fastpass window. What also isn't mentioned is the line to get Fastpasses, which often interferes, or the exterior queue which is there in the open because of Fastpass.

    If we're talking attraction/line efficiency then what we should be talking about is either maintenance, staffing, or Fastpass. The former 2 are variables not easily controlled. The last one was introduced by Disney and is used and abused extensively on resort property.
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  12. #27

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post

    Free park admission, free use of restaurants, shops and paid attractions (no, not free lunch, just not requiring a gate fee to shop/dine), tickets in the traditional A-E structure for everything else.

    Thoughts? I can see how this would reduce the lines in the major crunch attractions while also increasing the utilization of the "lesser" rides.
    Other people have already brought this up, but the crowds we see in the park now would pale in comparison to the crowds we would see in a park without an admission fee, IMHO. I think we would see a lot more people hanging out, a lot more parents who drop their 'tweens off and expect the park to babysit them, etc. Attractions like F! and the parades, which can't very easily be ticketed, would become impossible to see. So would character meet and greets, and I can't even begin to imagine what the lines for the fireworks would look like...

    So there would have to be an admission fee if they wanted to maintain any semblance of order. If there were ticket books on top of that, I think it would leave a lot of people feeling very nickel and dimed.
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  13. #28

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    I've always thought when it comes to the Anna & Elsa M&G why they don't charge a small fee to keep the line down and make revenue... and then I realize it'd be awful to be nickled and dimed once you've paid admission into the park. Disneyland is nice because once that admission is paid you can ride all the rides and enjoy the shows and things without pulling out your wallet (Except for food and souvineers of course). So I feel like it'd be a damper to charge individually for rides through a ticket book.

    Plus I could see my parents as having been the cheapskates that would take me to Disneyland and then buy one book and split the tickets amoung everyone... I'd hate for my childhood memories to include conversations like "Choose Dumbo OR Peter Pan, not both." Glad my childhood wasn't tainted with that.
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  14. #29

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    Also note that part of the crowd generated in Adventureland around Indy entrance is that a lot of guests are standing around waiting for the rest of their party to get off of Indy for whatever reason (kids too small, kid or adult too scared, elder guest to frail, etc.). As well as guests waiting for their exact FP return time.
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  15. #30

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    Re: A Return to Ticket Books

    As I've already stated, actual physical ticket books would not be used in a more technologically savvy present (or future).
    Plastic cards, like Metro's TAP card, that can be loaded up with as much "ticket-equivalents" as a guest wants would be used instead. Reusable for future days, etc.
    Could even "buy a fastpass" with a card like this, though they would be subject to availability. To paraphrase a great Pixar quote: "I mean, when everyone has a Fastpass, heh-heh-heh, no one does."
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

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