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  1. #16

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    And that was my point, both cause trouble, and its nothing but an easy excuse to just blame everything on locals like some do.
    Exactly. Badly behaved people come from all places, all walks of life and all ticket levels.

    I know that some posters here will say "we hate the AP program, not the APs themselves," however, we've seen direct comments that describe APers and locals in terms of very hurtful stereotypes. I remember one comment where a poster here said they could always tell an AP by the pins on their lanyard and their bad attitudes. We've read comments where people say they'd rather not see locals (read: APs) in the park, accuse locals of being rude and entitled, make very broad assumptions and judgments about locals' spending habits, etc.

    It's hard to read that and think that the hate isn't directed toward the APers themselves. It's hard to read that and think that there isn't some major stereotyping and scapegoating going on. And frankly reading all of that as a local and AP is pretty hurtful.
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  2. #17

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Exactly. Badly behaved people come from all places, all walks of life and all ticket levels.

    I know that some posters here will say "we hate the AP program, not the APs themselves," however, we've seen direct comments that describe APers and locals in terms of very hurtful stereotypes. I remember one comment where a poster here said they could always tell an AP by the pins on their lanyard and their bad attitudes. We've read comments where people say they'd rather not see locals (read: APs) in the park, accuse locals of being rude and entitled, make very broad assumptions and judgments about locals' spending habits, etc.

    It's hard to read that and think that the hate isn't directed toward the APers themselves. It's hard to read that and think that there isn't some major stereotyping and scapegoating going on. And frankly reading all of that as a local and AP is pretty hurtful.
    If someone saw me this past January, they would have seen me happily wearing a lanyard (my first one, ever!) with a few pins. Does that make me a "hated APer?" Nope. I have never been an APer. I consider myself a tourist (a "hated tourist"), averaging about one trip (one day) to Disneyland every 3-5 years if I'm lucky. I grew up going to Disneyland on average once every few years since I was a baby. I'm a 5-6 hour car ride away and I rarely stay in a hotel. My January trip was the first one where I stayed in a Good Neighbor hotel. Usually I stayed with family nearby. If I lived close enough, I would proudly have an AP.

  3. #18

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Exactly. Badly behaved people come from all places, all walks of life and all ticket levels.

    I know that some posters here will say "we hate the AP program, not the APs themselves," however, we've seen direct comments that describe APers and locals in terms of very hurtful stereotypes. I remember one comment where a poster here said they could always tell an AP by the pins on their lanyard and their bad attitudes. We've read comments where people say they'd rather not see locals (read: APs) in the park, accuse locals of being rude and entitled, make very broad assumptions and judgments about locals' spending habits, etc.

    It's hard to read that and think that the hate isn't directed toward the APers themselves. It's hard to read that and think that there isn't some major stereotyping and scapegoating going on. And frankly reading all of that as a local and AP is pretty hurtful.
    The reason threads get like that though is because the other side of the argument is talking about tourists with the same sort of stereotypes. The theme of the thread fits here too. Both sides of the polarized arguments do it, and it is something that should be tackled head on.

  4. #19

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    I'm an APer who would love nothing more than to see the entire AP program eliminated. It will probably never happen.

    As long as the program exists, DL is not worth full-price admission, IMO. So I choose to have an AP, make the six-hour drive a little more often, and pay less per visit like a local.

  5. #20

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    The reason threads get like that though is because the other side of the argument is talking about tourists with the same sort of stereotypes. The theme of the thread fits here too. Both sides of the polarized arguments do it, and it is something that should be tackled head on.
    APs seem to be targeted a lot more than tourists, though. It's not evenly balanced even a little. Tourists aren't blamed for all of the park's problems or considered riffraff the way APs are.

    A lot of the threads seem to have APs talking about how much they help tourists and how much they like to give them advice about getting around the park...a lot of threads have APs giving first time Disney visitors advice and helpful tips. A lot of threads have photos and updates on ongoing construction or events supplied by APs in an effort to help ALL Disney visitors. I just don't see this as being an even battle.

    I do agree that it needs to be tackled head on. It's not helpful to anyone when one half of the site's posters feel alienated by other (whether that's APs or tourists).
    Last edited by Malina; 07-11-2014 at 12:02 AM.
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  6. #21

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by BogLurch View Post
    Some of the complaints are legitimate. There ARE some APs who treat the park as their own personal property - you just need to remember that not everyone treats their personal property well. There's also the simple math that when you DO see someone misbehaving, if it's not a blackout day it's likely that the person holds a pass.
    I don't blame APs in general because I know for a fact it's not just them because they are locals. Working in customer service myself, and seeing a lot of locals and visitors coming through, it is NOT just the people who live around town who always frequent us who are to blame. This holds true to a lot of places, especially Disneyland. People in general tend to treat places they don't live or work in as a sty. A lot of customers assume the employees are only there to wait on them hand and foot, and to pick up after them.

    Of course, this isn't always the case. There are many people out there who were taught to and still practice respect for the places they visit. They try to be as clean as possible, take their trash to the proper bins, and even pick up trash they see lying around. I can't, however, say for certain pass holders are much more likely to respect the parks because of the reasons you mentioned, Zorcher. It would make sense and I don't doubt there are plenty AP holders who view their visits to the park that way.

    It's a matter of feeling a lack of responsibility. It's the "someone else will do it for me" mentality that begets the behavior. Whether that's a cultural or individual impact, I'm not sure. Some folks are messier than others, especially younger folk. I believe age has a much bigger impact on whether someone will litter or not, though this isn't always the case.

  7. #22

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    APs seem to be targeted a lot more than tourists, though. It's not evenly balanced even a little. Tourists aren't blamed for all of the park's problems or considered riffraff the way APs are.

    A lot of the threads seem to have APs talking about how much they help tourists and how much they like to give them advice about getting around the park...a lot of threads have APs giving first time Disney visitors advice and helpful tips. A lot of threads have photos and updates on ongoing construction or events supplied by APs in an effort to help ALL Disney visitors. I just don't see this as being an even battle.

    I do agree that it needs to be tackled head on. It's not helpful to anyone when one half of the site's posters feel alienated by other (whether that's APs or tourists).
    The reason for that is simple. It seems that the visiting patterns of those who can go to the park many times a year are more likely to facilitate problem guests (or guests who do things that annoy the online community) because of how they can use the park. They have the time to learn the systems and take full advantage of them, they can bring food from home, they have access to coolers and jumbo strollers because they aren't going on a plane, and they are the only ticket type that can see groups of teens hanging out in the park late at night. These actions seem to apparently bother others, and they get pointed out by all sorts of guests in threads, APs and tourists alike. Tourists have their own set of problems, but they just don't seem to be as high-profile. They slow down loading, cause traffic when they stop to read maps, make wrong turns in M&F, and can have a very bad "I paid a small fortune to be here for 3 days so I will do whatever I want" mentality. The real issue is thinking of the people doing these things as tourists or AP's. They are individuals doing bad things, and shouldn't be treated as a representation of the whole.

    In short, the idea that only tourists complain about the big-ticket and high visibility vex and annoy topics has been contorted into existence over time, but I can not find any concrete evidence that is how the debate started, or find any reputable members of the site who actually believe that. Not only that, but when someone comes in and does say that, they usually get corrected by both sides.

    You said in your first post "locals (read: APs)" but when someone says local, you shouldn't automatically assume it is AP bashing. That is one route of the issue and it is one of those pre-determined ideas I mentioned that forces this debate down the same road every time, even though it isn't how people are actually thinking. I've already noticed here in this very thread that all of the anti-AP comments have been brought up by people who are defending the AP's from this abuse. The discussion is being pre-loaded with it because that is the expectation of where this thread will go. That's a problem. The only real reason someone might confuse this is because they are typing to fast, or they don't fully understand what they are actually upset about.

    Lastly, based on MiceChat being a SoCal oriented Disney Enthusiast site, the membership (excpecially the vocal and engaged users) is mostly made up of AP holders or ex-AP holders. The tiny fraction of tourists who post frustrated on the site after a bad trip does not have the knowledge that we do as enthusiasts, and the unfortunate truth is that the pre-loaded debates guide them into a self-fulfilling prophecy of AP bashing.

    The solution? Correct people when they complain about people behaving badly. If they notice someone has an AP, or they comment about them having lanyards or pins or social club jackets, remind them kindly that it was an individual acting that way, and they are not an ambassador for everyone who has the same admission media, collects pins, or loves Disney. The world would be so much nicer if we hadn't been lumping people together by looks since the dawn of time, so lets help the MiceChat community avoid that pitfall through discussion.

    Lastly lastly, if someone is actually actively judging someone for the way they dress, look, or act, they may be breaking the MiceChat rules. Report them or use reputation and we will deal with it. But. reports of that nature are few and far between which only confirms that there are actually very few members who blatantly oppose AP holders as a whole.

  8. #23

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    I really and truly don't care, but now I'm getting negative points for trolling!! I think I may have wandered into junior high. This place is nuts!!

  9. #24

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorcher View Post
    I really and truly don't care, but now I'm getting negative points for trolling!! I think I may have wandered into junior high. This place is nuts!!
    I'm sorry that happened to you. It happened to me too when I first started posting, even though I wasn't saying anything different than anyone else on that side of the debate, but I got verbally hammered for it and given bad rep points only because I was new. You may liken it to junior high, but getting jumped into a gang may be more accurate (not that I have any experience with that ).

    Stick around though, there are a lot of great observations on this board. It really is worth reading and sometimes posting when you have something valid to say (which you did).
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  10. #25

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    I think the hate may be because people believe the AP holders pay the lowest rate to enjoy Disneyland. That is why people buy APs! To get a lower per visit cost and to get discounts on food and merchandise.

    It may also be, in part, due to envy of those who live close to the park. People who live in Fresno or San Diego have a lot further to travel in order to visit Disneyland but they still feel like it is "their home park".

  11. #26

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Awesome strawman this thread is.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  12. #27

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    While I do call Disneyland my second home (more so the HM) and have been an AP for a few years, I don't think of Disneyland as my own personal property that has work my way. I just enjoy the day having fun in my favorite place to get away while maintaining courtesy and respect for it's rules, cast members, and others in general. The linecutting, swearing, and all of that mess comes from AP's and non AP's alike because they choose to behave in such a manner that they constitute as just.
    Everyone is different in the way they experience the parks but no one is above the other except of course those who intentionally wish to cause trouble.
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  13. #28

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorcher View Post
    For a chat room about the "Happiest Place on Earth" you sure can rack up negative reputation points fast (whatever those are). Tough crowd
    Don't let the reputation bother you. Personally, I think they need to get rid of it. I sometimes like to give a positive vote to people when they are contributing, but some people don't like it when you disagree with their views so they'll knock you down. I just recently got voted down for just that.

    MiceChat is a great community of people, with a plethora of information that you'll enjoy if you're a theme park geek.

  14. #29

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    When you visit how on earth do people know if the people walking around are AP holders or not, unless they have it dangling from their necklace or a tattoo.
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  15. #30

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    Re: Hate for annual pass holders?!?

    If you have any concerns about reputation received, please do contact a moderator directly (as with my name, they are identifiable by a tag above the user icon when posting on the forums) - we are glad to look into points that may be incorrectly given, and the system is not perfect (none are, sadly, at the end of day, and the current system was the best of possible combinations of attributes compared to a badly functioning prior system) - but to briefly speak on the topic, rep points can and do help in identifying cases where deliberate trolling has been done and needs further looking into - not the case in this thread so far, I am glad to report. Apologies for this brief diversion - and thank you to all so far for discussing this topic calmly and rationally, on both sides!

    The purpose of the reputation system is best described as follows: "The goal of reputation is to promote MiceChat's Rules and Regulations which are designed to encourage positive discussions and an open, welcoming community. This is not an “I Agree” or “I Disagree” system. The intention is for members to reward those who have gone above and beyond to create good content or to help identify folks who derail discussions, create hostility or in any other way violate our rules and make it difficult for others to post."

    If it is not being used in this way, always feel free to contact a moderator with pertinent links and information.

    More about the rep system is explained in detail here.

    And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion...
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