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  1. #226

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post
    Well said. I'm in a similar position. I work 55+ hours a week. I may not get OT, but I sure get annual raises based on performance. You gotta put in the hours if you want to be a high-performer. That's true no matter what the job is.
    Maybe in the US, but its not like that in other countries. Not all jobs/professions require long unpaid hours to be a high performer.

    And long hours doesn't = more productive either. Every job and profession is different, in management long hours are necessary to get ahead, but labor rules permit long hours, but for someone like me who works in accounting at a hotel, long hours are not needed and not even permitted. I'd be written up with a warning if I work more then 40 hours in a week, so even if I wanted to, the company wont permit it.
    Last edited by jsmith11618; 08-03-2014 at 09:26 AM.

  2. #227

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    Maybe in the US, but its not like that in other countries. Not all jobs/professions require long unpaid hours to be a high performer. Nor do all professions get their raises based on performance and have fixed raises each year regardless of how well one performs.

    It's most definitely a US thing to want to work yourself into the ground.
    The US is the most productive country in the world for a reason.

  3. #228

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    It's most definitely a US thing to want to work yourself into the ground.
    I don't think it's just a "US thing". I have 3 coworkers from Canada. We are all in upper management and we all work similar hours. I don't see them complaining and saying "we don't do this in Canada". It seems to be a universal opinion that hard work and dedication pays off. And I definitely don't work myself into the ground. My job is rewarding and I enjoy what I do. I just happen to get paid to do something I'm good at and like to do.


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  4. #229

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    Nor do all professions get their raises based on performance and have fixed raises each year regardless of how well one performs.
    It's my experience that you get terrible, complacent employees when they have no performance goals. What incentive is there to do a good job when you're still getting a raise either way?


    "I do not like to repeat successes. I like to go on to other things." - Walt Disney


  5. #230

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post
    I don't think it's just a "US thing". I have 3 coworkers from Canada. We are all in upper management and we all work similar hours. I don't see them complaining and saying "we don't do this in Canada". It seems to be a universal opinion that hard work and dedication pays off. And I definitely don't work myself into the ground. My job is rewarding and I enjoy what I do. I just happen to get paid to do something I'm good at and like to do.
    key word upper management. Many salaried folks in the US are not in upper management and still have to work 40+ a week without OT, which is wrong on all levels.

    I have no desire to be in management because of the hours and lack of free time I would have, I value my time off and life is to short to spend most of it working. I like my job as well, but I don't want to live and 40 hours a week is sufficient for me. Plus I have job stability which management in my industry does not have.

    Even when I am done with school and working in a white collar job in healthcare, I'll still be hourly.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post
    It's my experience that you get terrible, complacent employees when they have no performance goals. What incentive is there to do a good job when you're still getting a raise either way?
    Every profession and job is different, many positions a company has to have but isn't a performance based type position. Take front desk at my hotel, they need 3 shifts per day, no way around that, have to have someone on the desk 24/7, but there is no real way to judge performance since the job isn't revenue generating position.

    How would you provide raises performance based in that sort of position?

    Sales department is performance based, but in sales you can easily track performance and provide incentives, not so easy with a position like front desk or night auditor where its mostly just standing and waiting for a guest to check in or out.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoever View Post
    The US is the most productive country in the world for a reason.
    I would agree if the long hours worked = most productive but it doesn't. The US doesn't generally rank at the top for productivity by hours worked. Long hours does not equal more productive.

  6. #231

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    How would you provide raises performance based in that sort of position?
    Easy. Are they punctual? Do they get bad Customer reviews? Does their Supervisor/Superior have to constantly remind them to do simple job functions? Do co-workers complain about their performance? There are always ways to measure your employees' performance. These are just some examples off the top of my head. You simply can't run a successful business without some sort of performance measure in place.


    "I do not like to repeat successes. I like to go on to other things." - Walt Disney


  7. #232

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    Every profession and job is different, many positions a company has to have but isn't a performance based type position. Take front desk at my hotel, they need 3 shifts per day, no way around that, have to have someone on the desk 24/7, but there is no real way to judge performance since the job isn't revenue generating position. How would you provide raises performance based in that sort of position
    Having worked a front desk position at a hotel and been in this position (granted this was a higher end boutique hotel but a business is a business) here's what me and my cohorts experienced. Perhaps its different from hotel to hotel.

    We started making minimum wage and working the shifts as you described. But we had people overseeing us and judging our customer-service prowess, as well as professionalism and other such things - including enticing guests to upgrade as much as possible, which I suppose could be a proxy for revenue. The seriousness with which we took our jobs was the gauge of where we would end up.

    I was promoted to "shift manager" within three months of taking the front desk job, which rendered me the ability to make $18 an hour plus overtime privileges which we didn't previously have. Basically I did what my superiors did previously. One of my friends after "proving" himself at the desk was moved to the concierge where he had more interactions with guests, received tips, and was also paid at a higher rate. Over the course of that year I was bounced from "front desk shift manager" to their marketing department and at the end of my first year was promoted to a "junior manager" there and made $30 an hour plus benefits. My friend meanwhile was a concierge manager. One of the girls we were with at the front desk ended up moving to the spa front desk and then the spa boutique and stagnated before quitting to go back to school, but made double on commission what she did at the front desk by the end. We've all since left and moved onto graduate schools but for the interim it gave us some experience.

    Front desk was treated as "entry level." No one aspired to remain there. Just like no one aspires to maintain a minimum wage job but rather to move up the chain a few rungs. Granted this is only representative of OUR experiences and probably doesn't reflect the hundreds of thousands of front desk clerks in our country that undoubtedly began life as one and retired as one... but then again I trust the market too much for most academics' taste.

  8. #233

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    Take front desk at my hotel, they need 3 shifts per day, no way around that, have to have someone on the desk 24/7, but there is no real way to judge performance since the job isn't revenue generating position.
    I think we are talking apples and oranges.

    In the US, someone can be "Salaried" and still make overtime. Only certain positions can be exempt from overtime. A front desk clerk or night auditor at a hotel would not be one of those positions.

    When most talk salaried positions without, it is upper management. It is usually positions that have control over how a company can improve or decline.

    I find it interesting that in Canada, you can work more than 8 hours in a day and not be paid OT.

    From Canada's government site: "For most employees, overtime begins after they have worked 44 hours in a work week. After that time, they must receive overtime pay or, if they agree in writing, time off in lieu of overtime pay."
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  9. #234

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcon10t View Post
    I think we are talking apples and oranges.

    In the US, someone can be "Salaried" and still make overtime. Only certain positions can be exempt from overtime. A front desk clerk or night auditor at a hotel would not be one of those positions.

    When most talk salaried positions without, it is upper management. It is usually positions that have control over how a company can improve or decline.

    I find it interesting that in Canada, you can work more than 8 hours in a day and not be paid OT.

    From Canada's government site: "For most employees, overtime begins after they have worked 44 hours in a work week. After that time, they must receive overtime pay or, if they agree in writing, time off in lieu of overtime pay."
    You have to be paid over-time in Canada rules vary by province, but in my province its 8 hours in a day, or 40 in a week if you go over either your paid over-time. When I said companies don't pay over-time I meant they will not schedule in a way where an employee will hit the OT mark and wont allow an employee to get into a situation where OT will be payable.

    As for front desk being only entry level, all depends on the size and type of hotel. Plenty have long term front desk agents, if you treat front desk as a low end, low paying job your guest service will suffer. All of the hotels I have been at so far all had low turn over front desk, most had 5-10 years experience, none made min. wage or anywhere close to it.

    Front desk was also not considered entry level, entry level was housekeeping, breakfast bar, food service etc. But again all depends on the hotel, and how the local management want to run the hotel.

    Believe it or not, there are people out there who have no desire to move up the corporate ladder into management work and are happy in a position such as front desk.

  10. #235

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post

    Believe it or not, there are people out there who have no desire to move up the corporate ladder into management work and are happy in a position such as front desk.
    You don't have to convince me. Running large teams/departments/divisions and dealing with all manner people issues isn't fun. A LOT of people find being paid as a highly-compensated individual contributor to be just fine. They are limited in advancement/compensation though as there's only so far you can climb as an individual contributor.

  11. #236

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Gen Disney Fan View Post
    I don't think it's just a "US thing". I have 3 coworkers from Canada. We are all in upper management and we all work similar hours. I don't see them complaining and saying "we don't do this in Canada". It seems to be a universal opinion that hard work and dedication pays off. And I definitely don't work myself into the ground. My job is rewarding and I enjoy what I do. I just happen to get paid to do something I'm good at and like to do.
    There are other mentalities out there tho. For instance, in Scandinavia, people do not work those extended hours. It's frowned upon in two angles... first... they believe (and practice) work/life balance. Second, to have to work longer hours than normal is seen as you being unable to complete your tasks. It's not just about "the go getter" - working the hours is actually discouraged. Trust me, its tough when the US customers think you should just work non-stop while Northern Europe is pretty much all on holiday in July

    It's a society thing... in the US there is always someone willing to do more to try to climb further. In other societies, employment is seen as a confined thing.. not something one should allow to consume them fully.
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  12. #237

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    When I said companies don't pay over-time I meant they will not schedule in a way where an employee will hit the OT mark and wont allow an employee to get into a situation where OT will be payable.
    I understand this completely. I have employees who work in positions where I do not want them working overtime. It isn't necessary.

    Believe it or not, there are people out there who have no desire to move up the corporate ladder into management work and are happy in a position such as front desk.
    I understand this completely. And they are successful. The idea of what is successful can be different from person to person. But they are no better or worse than the person who does want to climb the ladder.

    Every country is different. (And front desk in US is entry level usually. A housekeeper rarely moves to the front desk.) How they handle work is different. Yes, if you ever had to deal with a project that includes a company in Spain in July, you know to give yourself extra time due to "Holiday".
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  13. #238

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith11618 View Post
    Believe it or not, there are people out there who have no desire to move up the corporate ladder into management work and are happy in a position such as front desk.
    Yet often are the same people who are upset that their choice of position can't carry them to the financial goals they desire. People tend to forget they are paid based on their job's value... not where they are in their life.
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  14. #239

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina View Post
    Same here. That's actually why, in my current job, I negotiated to stay hourly instead of salaried. My time is important, and I firmly believe in having a life-work balance. If someone wants to keep me longer than I'm scheduled to work, I expect to be compensated for the extra time. And I know that's against the whole American "work yourself into the ground and be happy about it" ethos, but I don't think a workplace should have the right to make you work indefinitely without paying you for it.
    Agree 100%. I've been exempt salaried since I graduated college in the late 80's. My first 2 years or so after that was nothing but 60 hour weeks. Which was ok, most professions have a period of "paying your dues." The worst stretch, which I remember to this day, was a period where I worked 13 days straight around 15 hours a day. But once the due paying period is over, there is a limit to how much you owe your employer. It's easy to be gung-ho and say that hard work is rewarded, but it's simply not always the case. I really learned that lesson once when the company I was at went through a merger. New executive management came in, and even though we were extremely successful, for political reasons they really wanted to clean slate and start over. All those extra hours and missed time with my family then meant absolutely nothing. That's when I decided "never again."

    But to the main point of this thread, just like all the (rather acrimonious as I recall) threads here that were started back when the memberships were first re-organized, it's all purely academic to me. I've never been, and never will be a C33 member. I've read several times where this is just "a sign of the times", it's inevitable in "today's social climate", etc. etc. I wonder, is that really the case, or is just "a sign of Disney management", and "today's Disney management climate?" Now, folks like Rachane and David A. that have been members for years obviously have a lot more insight on this than I do, but it just seems that this was, right or wrong, purely a choice by Disney and not necessarily related to changing times and the spread of info on the internet.
    Last edited by Steveman; 08-03-2014 at 03:41 PM.

  15. #240

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    Re: Under current management, is Club 33 a 'true club' or an upper level Annual Passp

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    Yet often are the same people who are upset that their choice of position can't carry them to the financial goals they desire. People tend to forget they are paid based on their job's value... not where they are in their life.
    If pay were based only on the jobs value then why don't companies pay the same coast to coast for the same position?


    After my 5 year stint at a major airline, I quickly realized companies don't care how much you put into the company, if management decides to cut back or clean house, doesn't matter how much you put into the company, they just wont care and they don't. When they decided to lay off, they went solely by date of hire, not performance. Since then, I have not been willing to put in excess hours as all that time wasted for the company cannot be taken back, and at the end of the day, I got nothing out of 50 hour weeks but a lay off slip.

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