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  1. #16

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    I'm going to agree with Disneyphile...yet I'm going to agree with almost everyone here. I think people read into the name "Tomorrowland" too deeply. I mean, if you think about it, Fantasyland is more like Europeland, Critter Country is the 100-acre Wood, and New Orleans Square is really an irregular hexagon. Disneyland Paris had the right idea of calling their Tomorrowland "Discoveryland." That way they don't have to hear the criticism of things not being futuristic. But Walt's idea of Tomorrowland was "a land on the move," hence the Rocket Jets being up high and the Peoplemover (yes, slow, but also very fun) constantly going back and forth. People don't necessarily ask for the rocket jets and peoplemover to come back, but atleast put something up in the sky that moves. They were going the right direction with the Rocket Rods, but budget cuts put an end to that. But yeah, Tomorrowland will never reflect on tomorrow, it never really has, but man, it's such a cool land! And it's making a comeback! Let's just hope for the best and not read into it too much.

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  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones
    Disneyland is more important, commercially
    That is actually kind of funny...

    Disney World has 20,000 hotel rooms cramed full of big spending out-of-towners.

    Disneyland has 2,000 hotel rooms, and is 2/3rds full of locals visiting on hoppers and discounted tickets...

    Disney World is so far in the lead in commercial importance, it can't even see Disneyland in its dust.

  3. #18

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    >>Disney World is so far in the lead in commercial importance, it can't even see Disneyland in its dust.<<

    WDW would still be a commercially viable draw if EPCOT ceased to exist. Not so with Disneyland in CA. The public perception of Tomorrowland 98 and DCA really hurt business with the locals.

    Historically, Disneyland is inarguably the MOST important. And more subjectively, this may be so aesthetically as well.

  4. #19

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    Tomorrowland 1998, Merlinjones, WAS a bust with crowds--I agree.

    I just dont see how, unfortunately, Disneyland will EVER get its magic back. Face it--the Magic is gone FOREVER. It's replaced with whatever looks like a cheap idea. Like Buzz Lightyear. That piece of garbage (Yes, the RIDE is junk, because it's cartoons), probably only went in because it was cheaper than a brand new, innovative, and futuristic idea!

    The magic would only come back if Disneyland began getting BRAND NEW BRAND NEW ideas for itself constantly. And original ones. Not clones!

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    Disneyland has 2,000 hotel rooms, and is 2/3rds full of locals visiting on hoppers and discounted tickets...
    Why would locals stay at a Disney owned hotel, or any hotel for that matter?

  6. #21

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    >>Sorry, but I see the "old" Tomorrowland to be very futuristic, in the fact that none of it has become reality to this day.<<

    In fact those 1967 classics are more futuristic than what replaced them.

    I have to attribute much of the negative slant ("we can't do it") against Disneyland's traditional optimistic futurism to a social/political/literary bias amongst creative/executive types toward trendy post apocalyptic nihilistic futurism (as in the last few decades of sci-fi movie cliches), rather than any distaste for optimism/imagination on the part of the public perception.

    In choosing among chiches, I'll bet more Disneyland guests would prefer a Jetsons, 2001, Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow type experience at Disneyland than a dark, steamy Alien Ecounter... as demonstrated at WDW in recent years. After all, it is "Disney" land and should reflect Walt Disney's views of the future, as well as his great taste in modernist design.

  7. #22

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    WDW's Tomorrowland has more kinetic motion. But its attractions arent any better, except the TTA (Their Peoplemover, which Disneyland doesnt have at all) and their Astro Orbiter (theirs is up high!).

    Plus WDW's Tomorrowland has two barely operating attractions, and I like the look of Disneyland's better. WDW's is too plain, because it's practically all silver.

  8. #23

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    >>I just dont see how, unfortunately, Disneyland will EVER get its magic back. Face it--the Magic is gone FOREVER.<<

    It will be back, because the people will it to be so.

    Look at the positive reaction to the Tiki Room restoration... you won't see that on a financial analyst's speadsheet.

    In the business of Disney, everything old is new again to each generation, just as the new things will be to the next. The link between them must be quality and vision.

    All Disney needs are managers who can see that too, but Ivy League MBA's are rarely among them.

    Fortunately, Matt seems to be one of the Disney managers who has learned the most magic of all words: "YES."

  9. #24

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    It's cute when people argue personal opinions.

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  10. #25

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    >>It's cute when people argue personal opinions.<<

    In creative matters, is there any other way?

  11. #26

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    Well I really liked the pictorial/article comparing the new and old of tomorrowland Merlin. It's one thing to describe how tomorrowland has gone downhill, but it's another to actually show it. Very thought provoking!

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones
    I have to attribute much of the negative slant ("we can't do it") against Disneyland's traditional optimistic futurism to a social/political/literary bias amongst creative/executive types toward trendy post apocalyptic nihilistic futurism (as in the last few decades of sci-fi movie cliches), rather than any distaste for optimism/imagination on the part of the public perception.
    It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a "we can do it"/"we can't do it" perception....

    It has EVERYTHING to do with the lessons learned.... the "Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow" has been tried over and over, and every time it has aged poorly. It has needed freshened in 10 years, and replaced in 20 years max....

    Timeless fictional fantasy works for decade after decade after decade with only minor freshening.

    This like everything in business, has EVERYTHING to do with MONEY!!!!!!

    They no longer have any desire to spend money on stuff that will be stale before it is paid off.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones
    I have to attribute much of the negative slant ("we can't do it") against Disneyland's traditional optimistic futurism to a social/political/literary bias amongst creative/executive types toward trendy post apocalyptic nihilistic futurism (as in the last few decades of sci-fi movie cliches), rather than any distaste for optimism/imagination on the part of the public perception.
    I agree 100%, mj!

    I seem to come upon people who think optimism and wonder is out of style, but isn't that what the entire Disney foundation is based on? A dream is a wish your heart makes, right?

    I wonder how all of you are so pessimistic. The magic is still there. We just have to find it. I guess realistic constraints (MONEY) bashes out idealism (DISNEY MAGIC).

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones
    >>It's cute when people argue personal opinions.<<

    In creative matters, is there any other way?
    Nope! I do it too. Plus i highly enjoy your opinion so i'm letting you argue for me ;-)

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  15. #30

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    As I've mentioned elsewhere, I agree that trying to create a Tomorrowland that actually tries to address the future is futile. The future has a bad habit of catching up with you...or more likely your vision is totally wrong it all has to be redone in a decade or so. Budgetary disaster. So pick a vision and stick with it. The other lands that rely on time travel are stable because they depict a time that has passed and is knowable. Scheduled maintenence and the occasional new attraction is all that's required to keep Frontierland, Adventureland and Main Street going. The "Future That Never Was" redo didn't work because the overall theme was dark and cranky. But how much fun was it to watch the old cartoons in the Rocket Rods queue that depicted old visions of the future? A most interesting vision of the future was what occured in the late 50's and 60's...the "Jetson" period. This is an evergreen theme that is proven to enchant people just like the Tiki craze of that same time. So, do what the people at "Encounter" at LAX did and park Tomorrowland there and have fun with it. That vision of the future has already passed and is knowable...therefore stable. No updates required. Plus, it's bright, optimistic and cheerful. Fortunately, most of Tomorrowland is (or was) there already. So the People Mover's corny. Disneyland as a whole is pretty corny...but people love it. That kinetic aspect of different things whizzing by on tracks, in the air and on the ground made the place FUN. That's what it's all about. Disneyland is 50 years old and people know that. In a way, this giant outdoor museum has become a museum piece itself. They know that Walt's vision of the future is dated. But that vision just happened to occur during the most wacky time of making future predictions. OK...sorry Walt, we can't keep updating TL every 10 years because it'll break the bank...so we're gonna nail it down.

    "Welcome to Tomorrowland where you can visit the future as we saw it in 1964. Boy were we wrong! But it does look like fun, doesn't it?"
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