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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyMania
    California is known for it's beaches, but beaches did not originate in California..
    I am not talking about beaches, I am talking about the cheap carnival/coney island types of "attractions" they put up. Just because they are IN California does not make them Californian - at least not to me. I see those and think East coast because really - thats what they are famous for.

    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyMania
    If you want to make a park based only on California culture, you're going to have lands based on nothing interesting. Maybe we could add a Dot-Com land ("Mommy, I want to ride the cubicles again"), a freeway land, a plastic surgery land, and "The Border."
    I COULD make a joke about the giant orange lol. But I will just make a joke about having a day worker ride

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket
    My gripe about PP is that it lacks creativity and thought. It looks slapped together w/ a very small budget attached to it. I expected more from the company that brought us the park next door.

    They should just buy out the parking lot across the street and do a World Showcase like Epcot. Or something, anything else.
    which parking lot across the street?

    the Paradise Pier hotel and parking lot are already owned by Disney, the other sie has hotels, north is Disneyland and south is the convention center

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDude
    I COULD make a joke about the giant orange lol. But I will just make a joke about having a day worker ride

    Oh, come on, say it, PP would be a lot more appealing without the pealing!

  4. #49

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    Paradise Pier is lovely from 100 yards away, particularly at night. But once you actually enter this area and walk inside it, it's particularly ugly and bland.

    The biggest problem is that they obviously cheaped out on the materials used and the details added to the place. Slab cement is everywhere, and my local upscale shopping center has more intriguing ground treatments and eye candy. The Paradise Pier buildings are coated in that cheap "Shot-Crete" material that is sprayed on to most warehouses and pre-fab structures built since 1990. There is no detail or trimwork to speak of on any of the buildings in Paradise Pier. The "Boardwalk" area is the most ugly example of this cheap, everyday building style. The queues are made of more poured concrete and painted metal handrailings. It's ugly, ugly, ugly and entirely charmless. From 100 yards away, it's pleasant and unique. But once your actually experiencing it, it's crummy and bland.

    The other problem with Paradise Pier is that they spent all of that land on the lagoon, and then it just sits there unadorned and dead. There isn't a single boat out there, much less a surfboard or any indication that any human has ever dared to get near that body of water. They've got some sand and some ratty looking vegitation near the Golden Zephyr and Jumpin' Jellyfish, but there isn't a single beach towel or surfboard or fire pit. It's clearly obvious that no human has ever been allowed near the body of water that surrounds Paradise Pier. How could an off-limits environment like that be any fun? Nevermind the fact that the blowing beach grass and mounded sand looks much like the East Coast beaches from South Carolina up to New Jersey, and nothing like the SoCal beaches of Malibu, Newport, San Clemente or La Jolla.

    California Screamin' is a great roller coaster, but it's saddled with all of the poorly themed baggage the rest of Paradise Pier is. It has a charmless and ugly queue made of cement and steel bars, it has no plotline or story to speak of, and it's surrounded by cheaply made 21st century stripmall architecture that has been oddly landscaped as if it's located in Virginia Beach, Virginia. How is that supposed to represent Southern California surf culture again?

    20 bucks the "Imagineers" who were in charge of Paradise Pier aren't native Californians, and probably went to school back East. The magic is in the details, and Paradise Pier has very, very little detail. And the few broad attempts at theme they've tried to make are in no way exclusive to Southern California or the unique beach culture we have here. (The 60's SoCal surf posters in Pizza Oom Mow Mow are the lone exception, and are thus simply an aberration to the otherwise pathetic attempt at themed "California" in Paradise Pier.)
    Last edited by TP2000; 02-20-2005 at 08:57 PM.

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigertail777
    First off, not enough research since they really are not directly copying any particular old park and making a amalgation anyways, they should have stretched it farther. They should have included even more rides/attractions that are hard to find now because they are almost extinct like they did with the sunwheel (there are only about 5 wonder wheels left in the world). It was on the plans, but never built; an authentic shoot the chutes ride, particularly if it was the "old mill" type since there are precious few left. Or along the same lines, a tunnel of love (it WAS originally a adult park ya know). A funhouse is another dying breed and Disney could have made a fantastic one. As far as I know there is only one or two virginia reels left in existance, that would have been a fun "family" thrill ride. A ghost train could have been something fun. A real authentic older style bumper cars (sorry the bugs land ones look terrible). A parachute drop ride since I hear Knotts no longer has theirs. Ok thats just the rides (however I am sure I could think of more). And I am sorry but it does bother me that they disguised a metal coaster as a woody. Woody coasters have their own thrills, and they could have made a period style coaster that had sideways seats.

    Now lets get down to the costuming; none of the CM costumes in the area look turn of the century whatsoever, if you are in a turn of the century amusement park, you would expect the workers to look it. Look up coney island and how the attendants used to dress, and the workers in the gift shops should have elaborate period clothing as well. Women should have hoop skirts with that frilly lace stuff, men should have period suits (yes they wore stuffy suits everywhere then). To go the extra mile, cast members should be taught to speak turn of the century phrases and accents. Many men should have fake or real handlebar moustaches or sideburns it was very rare for men to be completely clean shaven.

    The shops; every darned amusment park from that time period that was by ocean had a salt water taffy shop where you could see the taffy being made and pulled. Almost always there was a big taffy puller machine in the window to attract the passing crowds. Every seashore amusment park had its own shell shop, where you could buy shells, and things made from shells one of the most popular souvineers from coney island was a shell with the words "coney island new york" engraved into its back. Most parks had a "glitter shop" where you could buy a postcard and either have the attendant glitter it up for you, or they had glitter stations where you could go and decorate your own postcard. Every part of the shops and piers were crammed with penny arcade devices; funny fortune telling machines were the biggest draw; where you punched in whether you were a man or woman, and the machine told you how your future life would be; how many kids you would have and who you would marry etc. It would be great fun if they made a revival machine of this with copies from the actual cards. There were also machines that gave you random "star cards" which would be a photo and stats on a star from the movies, or radio from the time period. There were also funny puppet machines that were popular, and test your strength kind of things. You know that parasol shop in disneyland where they paint your parasol for you? That idea stems from coney island too. Also they could have had funny picture photo booths for you to pose behind like in the older days as well.

    Food; there almost always was; homemade cotton candy stands, homemade lemonade stands where you watched the lemonade made in front of you. They could have made a copy of Nathans hot dogs the famous place in coney island. Besides the salt water taffy, which would generally be mostly a store by itself, generally there was a homemade candy shop; with home made fudge and caramel/candy apples made right on the premises. Hot roasted peanuts stand (disneyland used to have one waaay back when) its something you dont see often anymore, but if done right, people generally will pay top dollar to experience.

    Extra touches; by the pier they should have had a fake beach with bathing machines (those old fashioned "closets" on wheels that were put down by the seashore for women and men to change into for modesty sake). They could have had a small "show" of women and men in period bathing costumes. Every once in a while, they could have a mini "parade" of period dressed people dancing across the boardwalk singing; women with parasols, men with bowler hats or stovepipes.
    Very well said, Tigertail.

    As a teenager of the 80s, I'll never know what a seaside carnie was like. I could only imagine....
    http://www.longbeachheritagemuseum.com/pikepix.html

    Have any of you had the opportunity to visit the Long Beach Pike during operation? Although I haven't, it's safe to say that PP does not even come close to representing the ol' fashioned seaside amusment park for many reasons like the ones listed in tigertail's post.

    My main problem with PP (although I DO like screamin') is that is takes up too much room in a park that had HUGE space constraints. I believe PP dominates over 1/3 of the park's real estate -- evidence of too much sucking up to the head Disney honcho (Eisner) who does not have a creative marble in his head.

    In addition, the PP area clashes visually with every land in the park. In DL and especially world showcase in EPCOT, there are smooth transistions between lands (i.e. - Frontierland to NOS, TL to Fantasyland, etc). PP is just too abrubt visually especially coming out of a well-themed land like grizzly peak.

    My solution? Bulldoze the whole place and extend the bay area section. One of the most beautiful areas of California deserve more than a Palace of Fine Arts facade. I could only imagine the possibilities: Alcatraz, fisherman's wharf, lombard street, golden gate park, etc. This idea has been mentioned on boards everywhere and has even been rumored to be discussed recently by WDI.
    Disneyland allows me to escape the everyday stresses and routines of a Southern Californian resident.

    California Adventure brings me right back to the place I was trying to avoid in the first place.

  6. #51

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    Give the park some time to make alterations where they are needed. It is too early to already be considering it a failure, and frankly paradise pier isn't all that bad. Yeah, there is a difference in the themeing here when compared to other areas of the park, but it is respectfully so. It is a pier, a boardwalk, and that is what boardwalks look like. Have you ever been to Santa Cruz? New Port? Exact look-alikes minus DCA's ability to keep it a little cleaner.
    I am not saying it is my favorite area or it is a flawless masterpiece, but it serves its purpose and it an accurate portrayl.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigertail777
    sigh ... well you asked for it...

    The shops; every darned amusment park from that time period that was by ocean had a salt water taffy shop where you could see the taffy being made and pulled. Almost always there was a big taffy puller machine in the window to attract the passing crowds. Every seashore amusment park had its own shell shop, where you could buy shells, and things made from shells one of the most popular souvineers from coney island was a shell with the words "coney island new york" engraved into its back. Most parks had a "glitter shop" where you could buy a postcard and either have the attendant glitter it up for you, or they had glitter stations where you could go and decorate your own postcard. Every part of the shops and piers were crammed with penny arcade devices; funny fortune telling machines were the biggest draw; where you punched in whether you were a man or woman, and the machine told you how your future life would be; how many kids you would have and who you would marry etc. It would be great fun if they made a revival machine of this with copies from the actual cards. There were also machines that gave you random "star cards" which would be a photo and stats on a star from the movies, or radio from the time period. There were also funny puppet machines that were popular, and test your strength kind of things. You know that parasol shop in disneyland where they paint your parasol for you? That idea stems from coney island too. Also they could have had funny picture photo booths for you to pose behind like in the older days as well.
    Good call Tiggertail777, even as an English girl I always had this notion of saltwater taffy being ingrained in your culture - especially on the boardwalks and was surprised that DCA didn't think to include something seemingly fundamental.
    Paradise Pier reminds me in some respects of Santa Cruz Boardwalk but on our last visit I seem to recall that SC actually had some of the above essentials that you mention.
    Even in England we have traditional steam-fairs that print out your future and penny slot games which tour our country every summer.

    Surely DCA could install something similar? Just a few pieces of nostalgic Americana, could even theme it to California eg. your fortune could be that 'You will be bought a Malibu beach-house by a mysterious stranger'

    Or maybe that's the musings of someone in snowy Southampton

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones
    * Creative ties to Eisner's childhood "inspiration": Coney Island.
    Coney island is timeless. However, I wonder how much he could actually experience from his Limo?
    Disneyland allows me to escape the everyday stresses and routines of a Southern Californian resident.

    California Adventure brings me right back to the place I was trying to avoid in the first place.

  9. #54

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    >>Coney island is timeless. However, I wonder how much he could actually experience from his Limo?<<

    "Mummy... isn't that where the common children cavort on theme park attractions that bilk them of their lowly wages?"

    "Why, yes. Don't give it another thought dear, if it upsets you."

    "Someday I will build one of my own and charge 50 dollars to get in."

    "Oh, you are such an impetuous dreamer, Michael..."

    "Mummy, if we are late for Zeigfeld's matinee I may have to toss a fit. You know I hate to miss the overture."

    "Driver - - You heard the boy... step on it."

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by themur
    Great post Tiger Tail.

    Living in Nor Cal, we have the Santa Cruz Boardwalk. The Boardwalk used to have the greatest funhouse with slides, rolling barrel etc. I think a fun house at PP would have been very inspired.

    PP greatest attribute is its lighting at night and very few people get to see this!

    You nailed it Tigertail. But you know budgets and operations would not have allowed for all of that. Regardless, that's what it needed.And the SC Boardwalk is (and was) the greatest seaside park. I went as a small kid and they still had all of the sideshows and games from the 40s. The fun house and slides, all of it. There was a flavor to that stuff that you don't have in re-creations, but it is rich in detail. Good one!

    FYI- The Salt Water Taffy came from Atlantic City and was called Jame's. They flooded one night and the taffy was covered in salt water and they sold it anyway.. that was the legend.
    "As usual he's taken over the coolest spot in the house"- Father re: Orville 1963

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  11. #56

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    merlinjones, you made me

    I before you!

  12. #57

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    If PP had a wooden coaster, fun house, a dark ride and some other small Pier type attractions I think it would be allot better. Plus the water next to the pier looks like a lake shore not the California Pacific shore line.

  13. #58

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    they could have done a fantastic fun house based on Pinocchio .

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevdo
    First off, I understand the argument that this kind of "amusement park" was the type of park that Walt railed against when he created DL.
    Sort of. Walt wanted a place where kids and parents could ride together. Pan, Toad, Jungle Cruise, Autopia, etc.... Disneyland was already away from this concept when they built Matterhorn, BTMRR, Space, Splash, Indy, etc....

    I don't dislike the Pier simply because it is the opposite of what Walt wanted Disneyland to be.

    I dislike the Pier because it is cheap, unimaginative, and a HUGE step back from the standards that make other Disney theme parks so great.

    An off-the-shelf S&S tower and an off-the-shelf mad mouse? An off-the-shelf wave swing? Pipe rail and cement slab queues, just like Six Flags. A roller-coaster-themed-roller-coaster.

    It is cheap, it is plain, it is ordinary. It is the way Six Flags does things.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevdo
    I see PP as a nostalgic look at the past, not unlike Main St. or Frontierland in DL.
    I couldn't disagree more. To me, there is nothing in the Pier area that tells me I'm in the 30s or 40s or 50s. I'm in a genericly themed amusement park of today, with gnerically themed amusement park rides of today.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevdo
    First and foremost we have an outstanding rollercoaster.
    Far from outstanding, I'd say it is a pretty average roller coaster. Nice and smooth, but nothing special. It certainly doesn't have the repeatability of other Disney coasters. Matterhorn, BTMRR and Space (plus RnRC, and soon Everest) all have that something special. The ride is more than just "a coaster", and therefore far more repeatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevdo
    I think Screamin frames the whole section quite well
    I agree with this one. It frames the land as an average, generic amusement park land full of a bunch of generic rides that can be found at just about any cheap amusement park in the country. Nothing special.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevdo
    But overall I think the problem isn't the "concept" it is the execution of theme. Put in better rides and nobody could be complaining about the theme (okay... fewer people would complain).
    Still, I diagree. SFMM has better rides within the Paradise Pier generic amusement park theme, but you don't see people that frequent these boards busting down the gates to get in.

    The Pier doen't just need better rides. It needs to stop being a cheap, generic amusement park land full of cheap, generic amusement park rides.

  15. #60

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    We still like DCA. It was better when it opened. Many of the subtle great things have closed or open infrequently. As DL grew, so will DCA.

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