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  1. #16

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    Yeah... If DisCo has learned that "edutainment" gets old... DisCo dun lernt rong.

    What doesn't work is pavilions reliant on sponsorship (Hornizons, World of Motion), and films/shows (Magic Journeys/EO/HISTA, CoP/America Sings, CircleVision, etc).

    Three variations on my dream would be to a) clear out some backstage area, create a small Edison Square area off Main St. which serves as queue for a new Carousel of Progress, which exits into Tomorrowland, where Horizons takes over in the Carousel theater and possibly some adjacent space, b) similarly, since these two attractions are so closely related, it would be great to see them as centerpieces of a third gate I've long refered to as ImagiNations, a revamped vision of Epcot, or c) when the Chevron obligation is up, turn the whole Subs/Autopia/MBC land into SeaCastle, a giant outdoor model city, at the center of which could be a revamped Horizons (revamped because issues like AgriFuture, undersea living, land transportation, etc., will already be addressed in new Hunny Hunt-based Autopias, Aquatopias, a reworked Sub ride, and of course the PeopleMovers/Monorails).

    In any case... yes, I wholeheartedly welcome bringing real rides back into Tomorrowland, as well as rides that celebrate... Tomorrow. And, since Horizons no longer exists at Epcot, it would be the first attraction in a long time that is not a clone. Nor is it tied in to anything but another Disney original, CoP. Makes it an A+ candidate in my book.
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
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  2. #17

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    Dream on dreamers........

    The (original) theme is dead, long live the (fictionalized) theme.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    Nice idea, but not economically practicle.

    Over the 50 years that Disney company has been running theme parks the biggest lesson they've learned is that Walt's vision of Tomorrowland was an economic black hole. Edutainment based rides simply don't last. And with 8 theme parks, and a 9th opening soon, they can't affor major rework of parks every 10-15 years. They need DL, MK, DLP, Epcot and MGM to be "done" so that they can concentrate funds on building out DAK, DCA, DSP and HKDL.

    Walt's vision of Tomorrowland has been dead for 20 years, killed by economic realities that the concept simply is not workable in a real-world, profit-driven business plan.
    rather then get involved in the specifics of theming dishimel I'm going to point out that the idea of having attractions that don't outdate is rediciouls

    the whole way a theme park buisness is run is to keep new additions going so that people will alway sbe interested in coming to your park

    the goal is to keep the additions big but the prices on adding them low so that you get the most money

    but to say that you want to create the "perfect park" which requires no replacements or additions is rediculous

    that's like saying you want to create the perfect TV show that never becomes old or dated or that you want to create the perfect movie or how about creating the perfect TV station?

    you'll always need to reinvest because theme parks are entertainment and that's how the entertainment industry works

    there is a nice side to the theme parks in that I don't think they're quite the "feast/famine" world that most of the entertainment industry is (gaming/films/theator they all have those spurts between producets but theme parks are a constant with a slow drop in price)

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    Dream on dreamers........

    The (original) theme is dead, long live the (fictionalized) theme.
    true, at least for Disneyland itself it's just not fitting to try to create the future like that

    a sci fi view has always been more fitting

    lets remeber that Disney always takes an oversanitized view on everything so we're already in the realm of fiction

    now it's just a matter of how much realisum we want in there

    I think for places like Epcot we may see a bit of actual science survive though

  5. #20

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    I don't think it's a very good idea.. To much space... They could create an awsome original attraction in that(basicly useless) space of Innoventions.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jspider
    rather then get involved in the specifics of theming dishimel I'm going to point out that the idea of having attractions that don't outdate is rediciouls
    And the idea of having Tomorrowland attractions that don't outdate is beyond ridiculous (or rediciouls); it's completely absurd and antithetical to the entire point of Tomorrowland. In fact, in order to have a Tomorrowland, everything in it MUST outdate at some point.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by innerSpaceman
    And the idea of having Tomorrowland attractions that don't outdate is beyond ridiculous (or rediciouls); it's completely absurd and antithetical to the entire point of Tomorrowland. In fact, in order to have a Tomorrowland, everything in it MUST outdate at some point.
    And that's a lesson I hope Disney learns... Updating Tomorrowland doesn't always have to mean tearing the whole thing out and building it anew from scratch. Look at HMH. That's an update too. Look at Canals of the World -> Storybookland. Original Matterhorn vs. Extra Yeti... From what I've read, Jungle Cruise has been updated several times, and is getting something Gnu even as we speak. It's Plussing, and most lands get plussed to stay fresh, yet aside from PeopleMover, I can't think of any real examples of plussing in Tomorrowland during my lifetime.

    Let's face it. How long would a movie stay at the local multiplex if it were only about 20 minutes long and never changed? Within a month it would already be at the $1 theater, and it would still be mostly empty. Why would anyone think that a film or show at Disneyland wouldn't wear out its welcome almost as quickly? Add to that the notion that, when Star Tours was about to close down an Omnimover ride, Tomorrowland had Magic Journeys, Mission to Mars, America Sings, and Circlevision, which I recall being more show/films than the rest of the park combined. Now, you have a film, an exhibit, and an antiquated simulator. Plus, that OTHER park just across the way, with a stage show, two 3-D shows, two films, and another simulator using projected film. It's an overdose. And like the multiple Autopias, it needed to be thinned out so that the better shows didn't suffer from oversaturation.

    For all Space Mountain's flaws, it will hopefully have awesome special effects that keep it at least 50 years in the future. That's a big advantage over something TOO science-factual like Mission to Mars, which became dated with the advent of the space shuttle.

    Like Bambi, Tomorrowland should be more impressionistic, avoiding the saturation of fine detail in favor of a neutral canvass on which the main players will stand out. That's why so many people favor the white Space Mountain scheme. You can always freshen and update the SM exterior with lights and effects and a pinch of imagination...
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

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  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    They are working on scrapping Epcot Future World as quickly as money will allow. Motion = Test Track. Horizon = Mission Space. Land is gettng Soarin'. As money becomes available, they'll continue to rip out the stale edutainmenty stuff and replace it with thrill rides and cartoons.
    The Land Boat Ride was Not replaced, and since it, not that preachy movie that Soarin is actually replacing, was the main attraction of The Land Pavillion I think including it in this argument is a bit disingeniuous
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  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff
    The Land Boat Ride was Not replaced, and since it, not that preachy movie that Soarin is actually replacing, was the main attraction of The Land Pavillion I think including it in this argument is a bit disingeniuous
    For that matter... the Horizons pavilion would have gone on in perpetuity if it had been able to keep its sponsor, and World of Motion was only changed to Test Track as a result of renegotiations with -- you guessed it -- its sponsor.

    If Future World had dropped its greedy policies about outside sponsorship, OR had approached existing and potential corporate partners with sketches from WDI for new rides that had both edutainment AND thrill, Future World would have improved its ride mix, had more attractions than it has now, and would probably generated enough ticket revenue to keep the Horizons and World of Motion sponsors actively supporting the rides.

    Bottom line, Sponsorship is the crack monkey on Epcot's back, not "edutainment."
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

    -- Walt Disney

  10. #25

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    Then again, everything in a land called FutureWorld MUST change, just as everything in a place called Tomorrowland should. It has nothing to do with edutainment, sponsorship or staleness. It's the nature of the beast.

    Unfortunately, no one's been up to the task. The Future of FutureWorld is far more bleak than its glorious past, and the apotheosis of Tomorrowland was last seen in 1977.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by innerSpaceman
    Then again, everything in a land called FutureWorld MUST change, just as everything in a place called Tomorrowland should. It has nothing to do with edutainment, sponsorship or staleness. It's the nature of the beast.

    Unfortunately, no one's been up to the task. The Future of FutureWorld is far more bleak than its glorious past, and the apotheosis of Tomorrowland was last seen in 1977.
    Again though, change doesn't have to be limited to the "raze one, build another" approach they have taken. Change can be updates. Better yet, moreso in Epcot than most parks, change can equal growth.

    That's one thing I wish Disney did more in its Future-oriented lands. Build a modular environment. I remember going to Cal Arts and seeing their Modular Theater, and now I think that would have been a great way to do something like Innoventions (if it had to be done at all).

    And a lot can be done with signage, lighting effects, and simple cosmetic changes every year or three. Pick a ride, add a little something when it goes down for its regular refurb, and let the rest of the land become supporting characters for whatever ride is the current star. For the subs, empty some planters and fill them with water lillies or sea lavender, have some aqua colored lights and wave patterns, maybe even install a temporary tide pool in the lower floor of Innoventions. Have a new menu item at Pizza Port with kelp as a main ingredient. Hang a scrim over the murals, with temporary murals featuring Liquid Space. For just a little more in the maintenance budget, you could keep Tomorrowland fresh without having to always replace flagging attractions.
    See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
    78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

    "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

    "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

    -- Walt Disney

  12. #27

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    Why can't we have a tomorrow?

    I have read all the arguments that Disney has to be economical and create a Tomorrow that that lasts, some how, for the ages. I just don't see how that is possible. How can you expect things to stay popular for 50 years? Walt was a unique person who could predict what people would like for a long time. Most are not.

    I have to say that Tomorrowland is not the only land that MUST out of necessity be updated periodically. Think about Fantasyland. The last movie that is connected to a ride was released about 60 years ago? Come on! It needs to be updated periodically too. New animated films are released. People's tastes change. Disney charges the highest admission prices for any amusement parks in the world. They make BOAT LOADS of money each year on a park like Disneyland. They just have been using the money to keep ABC afloat and pay Michael Eisner mucho in salary and bonuses! I believe now is the time for some investment in Disneyland. It will pay off many times over in the years to come. Tomorrowland is a great place to start and it will attract more people to the park, which makes even more money. You have to spend money to make money! :devil:
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  13. #28

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    I like having Edison Square built off of Main Street (Where it was originally suppose to be). Part of me likes that it could seque into CP, but how would you get over to there? Another part of me dosen't like messing with diluting the hub concept. But, back to CP. If it was done correctly, the only "wedge" that would need to be updated fro time to time would be the present day wedge. Of course the gap between the present day and the prior generation would be stretched as time went on. Maybe the first generation wedge would get knocked out and be replaced by the next generation wedge.

  14. #29

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    This is just me talking very vaguely and not really supporting anything that i'm saying with fact, but to me (someone please prove me wrong) it seems that the "Real" future went into Epcot's Future World, and since then Tomorrowland has become a sci-fi fantasy future that really has nothing to do with the real future. Summary: Real Future = Epcot. Fake Future = Tomorrowland. Like i said, i have no fact or proof behind this, and was just throwing out an idea.

    As for Horizons coming to Disneyland... i don't know how i feel about that. Just because i never went on horizons at Epcot. I'm not skeptic here, just ignorant. But i have a feeling it would be better than Innoventions. But i love the Pizza Port! I know i'm the only one it sounds like, but it's just such good food! (This is my opinion, don't argue it!) But is the modern park-goer really looking for an Edutainment ride? I wonder if it's the company geting rid of the learning fact-filled rides, or are people just looking for a cheap mindless thrill nowadays? Honestly, who really is to blame here? i odn't know if Disney pushes the thrill rides on us (i.e. Mission Space and Test Track) or if people just lose interest in the original ride forcing DIsney to replace it with something that the average park guest wants. This just isn't in the parks though. Look everywhere, TV, movies, magazines, everything is just becoming so mindless and i really think maybe society just doesn't have a need for the edutainment rides. Just my 2 cents...

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  15. #30

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    Everyone, don't argue with dshlemiel. He knows better than Walt Disney himself and he is never wrong. About anything. Ever.

    So just save your breath. All of you.

    Dshlemiel is always right, and we are always wrong. It's that simple.
    My fondest memory of Walt Disney was the day Disneyland opened....I was standing next to him - I was 12 years old - he was looking at the gate where people were coming through, he had his hands behind his back, he had a grin from ear to ear, but you could see the lump in his throat and the tear coming down his cheek because his dream had been realized. -- Mouseketeer Sharon Baird, "Mouseke-Memories", Walt Disney Treasures: The Mickey Mouse Club

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