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  1. #46

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogberto View Post
    If those are the only reasons you come to Disneyland and spend money, then by all means don't renew your pass. For some of us, we have different reasons for going, so you shouldn't also expect others to join in your boycott decision if we have different reasons for being passholders.
    That's an insulting comment, and I take umbrage to it, myself. It's CASpace's right to boycott Disneyland and to let others know his feelings on the matter.

    The free market system depends on consumer boycotts to hold managements accountable for their decisions. And, frankly, CASpace is offering legitimate objections to the lack of respect some people in The Walt Disney Company have for preserving the artistic integrity of The Magic Kingdom, which is, indeed, both a cultural institution and a public treasure.

    Intellectual property is a misnomer. The rights that governments provide to copyright and patent holders merely allow them to commercially distribute said works exclusively. There is no provision necessarily allowing intellectual-property-rights holders to transform these works into anything but that, which their creators intended.

    If Disney doesn't start making a more sincere effort to preserve original design intent in the manner in which the company used to, then I envision a preservationist movement rising to stand against the continual devaluing Disney's management has been perpetrating against its own assets over these last twelve years.

  2. #47

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Folks, let's remember a few things;

    The lawyers did make many changes to TSI. While we may not all agree with them, look at all they have to deal with in lawsuits and what not. Had a kid lost a limb we'd either blame the parents for not watching their kids and blame the kids for being stupid. While those are good reasons to point the finger at negligent visitors, let's also remember that Disneyland is not without fault just because it is an amusement park. Or because it is Disneyland. There is magic...but it's not harm free. It's called covering their butts. not "Oh let's see how we can ruin this and make the AP'er's mad at us."

    The other thing is this. If Walt had wanted a museum of a park he would have built one. Things change, and that is what I wish everyone would just get over. Change happens people. If everything stayed the same all the time, Disneyland would cease to exist and we would sit here complaining about how they should have changed things, etc.

    Sometimes I think we take things too seriously and we think we all know what Walt would have wanted. We don't know what he had in mind for the future of the park. He may have wanted things that we would look at and say "WHAT?!?!?!?!" I mean come on, do you think we all know what he was doing just because we go to Disneyland and read all about his past plans? No.

    If you are upset with how the park is being run, then by all means, don't renew your pass. No one is twisting your arm. Just because you pay lots of money for it does not mean that the suits have to cater to your every whim. That's not why they sell AP's people.
    Last edited by Disneykat; 10-05-2006 at 07:23 AM.
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  3. #48

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    since everyone around here love JOhn L, I am surprised that they didn't use a toy story theme for the island. put woody and his bunch on the island and you have a western theme at least. not that I am for that but it's better than pirates and fits the themeing and kids relate to woody and his crew

  4. #49

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneykat View Post
    Folks, let's remember a few things;

    The lawyers did make many changes to TSI. While we may not all agree with them, look at all they have to deal with in lawsuits and what not. Had a kid lost a limb we'd either blame the parents for not watching their kids and blame the kids for being stupid. While those are good reasons to point the finger at negligent visitors, let's also remember that Disneykand is not without fault just because it is an amusement park. Or because it is Disneyland. There is magic...but it's not harm free. It's called covering their butts. not "Oh let's see how we can ruin this and make the AP'er's mad at us."

    The other thing is this. If Walt had wanted a museum of a park he would have built one. Things change, and that is what I wish everyone would just get over. Change happens people. If everything stayed the same all the time, Disneyland would cease to exist and we would sit here complaining about how they should have changed things, etc.

    Sometimes I think we take things too seriously and we think we all know what Walt would have wanted. We don't know what he had in mind for the future of the park. He may have wanted things that we would look at and say "WHAT?!?!?!?!" I mean come on, do you think we all know what he was doing just because we go to Disneyland and read all about his past plans? No.

    If you are upset with how the park is being run, then by all means, don't renew your pass. No one is twisting your arm. Just because you pay lots of money for it does not mean that the suits have to cater to your every whim. That's not why they sell AP's people.

    Very well said. ITA with your point of view
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  5. #50

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cmash95 View Post
    since everyone around here love JOhn L, I am surprised that they didn't use a toy story theme for the island. put woody and his bunch on the island and you have a western theme at least. not that I am for that but it's better than pirates and fits the themeing and kids relate to woody and his crew
    Kids relate to Woody and jessie, pre-teens and teens (and adults) relate to Jack Sparrow. POTC is one of my favorite rides, but sometimes people want a bit more Pirates. Imagination and fun can happen on an island, and perhaps the plans in place right now will change and progress. it's been known to happen. I'm interested to see what becomes of this.

    i don't see what the big deal is, and maybe I'm missing something? Raise your hand if you think Walt would have kept everything the same......it all goes back to Disneyland being a place for everytone to enjoy vs it being a museum.

    Just thank your lucky stars that we haven't gone in the downhill direction of extreme rides like knott's did.
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  6. #51

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Seriously... not buying AP's actually puts MORE money in the banks for Disney. They have less people in the park who bought tickets at a reduced price and more room for people paying full day admissions. Disney actually LOSES money on ever AP sold. If everyone AP holder stopped renewing theirs, everyone would have to pay fullday admission prices which would provide a fair amount more cash flow and would actually allow for a reduction in addmission prices, or raises for the CM's. Hmm.... maybe the APers should boycott!

    I don't say that to be rude... just that boycotts aren't always the wisest course of action. Especially when your method of boycotting actually nets the company more money. They will thank you for boycotting. Instead, buy more APs. Or better yet, since that will drive the normal prices up even higher, fill out so many complaint cards at City Hall that they have to haul them out with backhoes and dump trucks. Snow them under. If you are all that upset, put in the work and effort to show them that and let them know. Simply not buying a AP isn't going to do that.

    Do the math: How much does one AP cost? How many one day park tickets is that equal to? Are you willing to cut your visits to Disneyland per year to less than that number? Are you willing to cut it to significantly LESS than that number in order to make any sort of a financial impact? Can you convince enough APers to do the same so that that impact is actually noticed at all? I don't see that happening, so this method is ruled out.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  7. #52

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    They're ruining Walt's park and besmirching his legacy in their greed.

  8. #53

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Disneykat View Post
    ].............................
    If you are upset with how the park is being run, then by all means, don't renew your pass. No one is twisting your arm. Just because you pay lots of money for it does not mean that the suits have to cater to your every whim. That's not why they sell AP's people............................................ ...
    Please understand that I am not asking management to cater to my every whim, I just want them to PRESERVE THE SHOW. If TSI is redone with a Good Show in mind and is not another Innovations or Tarzans treehouse then that is a decision that is made and I will live with. The issue that I have is a global Disney parks issue, The show is NOT preserved. Which I had detailed in my numerous posts on this thread. I am not sure if people did not fully read my original rant (I don't blame you it was long ) Or if my initial discussion of TSI took the focus on what I am really trying to say here. I want the SHOW to be preserved. I am seeing a return to the "Mall-ification" of Main Street's shops and retail shops through the park. I am seeing the wonderful small pieces of magic being removed or overlooked, The placement of non Disney haggler photographers, hustling you to take a picture (Penny Arcade, Pirates fortuneteller machine, magical souvenirs being replaced by ToysRus type toys) The firing or disbanding of certain of the street atmosphere musicians/characters.
    The low pay and moral problem on behalf of cast members and problems with Human Resources department.
    I love Disneyland obviously I would not constantly be spending my own free time enjoying the park and significantly contributing to the bottom line of the park. I would just like to see a park management which understood that it is IMPORTANT to HAVE A GOOD SHOW.

    Please understand I do not believe I am not asking for the world here. Mantain a good show, preserve the magic.
    Frankly if TSI is changed its not the major issue for me as long as WDI is able to think it through and make it at LEAST funner then TSI was in its heyday.

    I just feel that management needs to know and understand that there are at least a few AP holders that wont keep spending money and renewing PAP's for the park like droids if the magic continues to be swept away. If the show is not preserved, Dland becomes just another amusement park and that is when I step off the train. Do I want that to happen NO, although if we do not get more creative type executives into management before John L burns out, it just might.I imagine most of us agree the things that make Disneyland so special is the Magic, the magic is many things some big things many small little things, the theming, the people, the cast. Right?!
    I believe that we need to help keep the magic alive and make sure the suits in TDI or in Florida understand what the magic is, it is more than a tag line on a commercial. That's all I am trying to say here
    Last edited by CAspace; 10-05-2006 at 09:51 AM.

  9. #54

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    CAspace, I understand where you are coming from, however, you need to uderstand that things need to change. Sadly people want a quick fix. They want things that at times cannot be met by the nostalgia that once was the park.If things that no longer exist were brought back....what would our teens, and furthermore future generation say about that park? It sucks.......Granted, I'm the biggest advocate for the people mover being brought back. There are things that should be considered and brought back, but not everything back. Things need to change and allowed to evolve.

    My question is this....you talk of "the show".....can you be more specific. Maybe my blonde brain isn't comprhending today, as it is my day off and I have been having a "der" moment a minute this week.
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  10. #55

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    DisneyKat:

    Disneyland is a show, there are cast members (employees) and Guests: The Audience (Us)
    The stage is the lands, the grounds, the set's, the props. You know that though I am sure.

    I want the show to be preserved, for the CastMembers and the management to view the park as the set. To keep the magic alive for the Guests, for the audience. I am seeing a return to the "Mall-ification" of Main Street's shops and retail shops through the park. I am seeing the wonderful small pieces of magic being removed or overlooked, The placement of non Disney haggler photographers, hustling you to take a picture (Penny Arcade, Pirates fortuneteller machine, magical souvenirs being replaced by ToysRus type toys) The firing or disbanding of some of the street atmosphere groups/musicians/characters.
    The low pay and moral problem on behalf of cast members and problems with Human Resources department.

    All these elements contribute to a good show. I am sure there are many other member here that have had Cast Member experience back in the day when show preservation was at it's height and could better explain what that entailed.

  11. #56

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    I understand what you are saying (see my post #16 in this thread), but I always thought that for the most part Annual Passes were more of a benefit to the Pass holder not to the Park. The Pass gives us an opportunity to enter the Park at GREATLY reduced rates. It is then up to us to determine how much money we will spend on food/goods. I am not sure that a critical mass of non- renewals would impact management's decisions other than to raise prices to replace the lost revenue. I am not a mathematical wizard, by any stretch of the imagination, but, if on the average day the Park has 40,000 guests and 25,000 are day passes at a cost of $60. each and 15,000 guests are AP holders whose cost of passes averages out to $15. per visit the Park has earned $1,725,000. If every AP holder were to not renew, and therefore go onto a day ticket plan(and reduce their frequency of visits) we can subtract 12,000 APs and add 3,000 day tickets. The days receipts are now $1,500,000. That's a loss of only $225,000. If they raised the day ticket price by a mere $8. they have their loss covered and the Park is less congested. And they need to have fewer CMs. Good Grief! Let's hope they don't do the math or they are going to phase us out!! Let's hope my understanding /math is completely off.

  12. #57

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    Seriously... not buying AP's actually puts MORE money in the banks for Disney. They have less people in the park who bought tickets at a reduced price and more room for people paying full day admissions. Disney actually LOSES money on ever AP sold. If everyone AP holder stopped renewing theirs, everyone would have to pay fullday admission prices which would provide a fair amount more cash flow and would actually allow for a reduction in addmission prices, or raises for the CM's. Hmm.... maybe the APers should boycott!
    I STRONGLY disagree. I multibillion dollar corporation like Disney would never sell ANYTHING that will cause it to lose money. They have countless accountants and various other number crunches making sure of this. Disney makes A LOT of money (I'm talking net figures here) from APs.

    Let's say somebody has an AP and goes several times a week and has at least a couple of meals there a week. If Disney decided to take away APs... that same person would probably go to Disneyland only once a month.

    The Disney Corp. doesn't sell APs out of the kindness of their hearts because they love us so much. They sell them to make money. Also, APs tend to be walking advertisements for Disneyland. They are also likely to convince friends and family that normally wouldn't go to Disneyland to take a trip there. This would generate money for Disney because they friends and family would have to buy a full price ticket for the park.

    In the long run, if Disney stopped selling APs, they would suffer a loss.

    Also... not all APs are against the change to TSI. I'm sure a lot of them would approve. I do.

  13. #58

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    ^ This is a little closer to the truth. The academic studies done at Disneyland and other theme parks show that the highest amount per visitor is spent by those travelling from outside the country, followed by those outside of the state. That's mainly because they spend a lot on lodging at Disney hotels, but even the amount spent in souveniers and meals is more per person for those travelling from far away to get to Disneyland for their "once in a lifetime" vacation.

    However, what equals the most profit to Disneyland is keeping Disneyland at maximum capacity (meaning that shops, restaurants, and gate admission is high). That usually means a mix of both out of town tourists and more local passholders and frequent visitors are needed to keep profits up, and the multi-tiered passholder system that Disney has adopted is created to do just that.

  14. #59

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Plenty of multi-billion dollar corporations sell you things at a loss. X-Box is sold at a net loss. They make up for it in game sales. Playstation is sold at a loss. Again, game sales make up the difference.

    Cell phones are sold at very drastic losses. They make up for it in higher plan costs and other fees.

    Cable services are sold at a loss and made up for by advertising and partnerships.

    That's how businesses work. The cost of research and development and production, if factored into the consumer cost of a product or service, push it high enough that it is not economically viable to sell the item. In order to drive sales, they drop the market cost below the level where they will make their money back and the recoup the difference in other ways.

    With Disney, they are loosing on the AP's (because of the fact that AP holders do go so often. A 365 day AP costs $359. A 1 day 1 park pass is $53 (1 day park hopper is $73). After just 7 visits to Disneyland alone, they are losing money on your AP. If you go to both parks, they are losing money after only 5 visits. It doesn't matter what people would do if they didn't have the AP's... what matters is what is happening. Every time you renew your AP, after your 6th visit or so, you are causing a net loss to Disney of about $63/visit. Multiply that out by ALL the AP holders out there and it ads up to a fairly significant figure over a year.

    If an AP holder stops renewing and pays for every visit to Disneyland:
    1) They can obviously afford the 6 visits their AP is worth or they wouldn't own one in the first place.
    2) If they go those 6 times, then there is no difference to Disney.
    3) How many APers could go from being able to go whenever to only 6 times/year? Some, but many no.
    4) Any visits over those initial 6 are a profit that Disney didn't have when they had their AP.

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. mycroft16 on Twitter

  15. #60

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    Re: Suits keep taking away the little things, perhaps I should not renew PAP (A rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft16 View Post
    Seriously... not buying AP's actually puts MORE money in the banks for Disney. They have less people in the park who bought tickets at a reduced price and more room for people paying full day admissions. Disney actually LOSES money on ever AP sold.
    Can you back that up with evidence or fact?

    Or is it just a hunch of yours?

    If the AP Program costs Disney so much in lost revenue why have they continued it for over twenty years?
    IMO - YMMV - FYIGM


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