Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 93
  1. #31

    • Banned User
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    430

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hamand View Post
    Shakespeare wrote plays to bring an audience (revenue) to his theater or for patrons who paid him. I'd say that qualifies as a product.

    I'd argue both. Dickens was well paid for his work. That does not mean that his work was crap.
    So commerce triumphs over art every time? Doesn't matter if the world recognizes something as art, if it isn't making a profit, do away with it?

  2. #32

    • pirate wench
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    needing to be closer to the house of mouse
    Posts
    50

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Fromwhat i've seen here I know a lot of people are very against the pirate themeing because it would change it's land connection, but the way I see it, wouldn't the pirates also pull NOS into the the ROA theme? The animals tie it into critter country and the Mark Twain ties into frontierland, so why not tie the island into new orleans square? just a thought
    " bring me that horizon"
    -Captain Jack Sparrow

  3. #33

    • MiceChat Moderator
    • Collapse the waveform
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    4,206

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janie View Post
    So commerce triumphs over art every time? Doesn't matter if the world recognizes something as art, if it isn't making a profit, do away with it?
    Define "triumphs". I didn't say that Dickens and Shakespeare weren't artists. I just said that they did their art for pay. Even artists have to make a living.

    Art and commerce aren't mutually exclusive. Just because an artist has to satisfy clients and make a profit doesn't mean that the product can't be good.

    Which (to bring this back on topic) is what the ex Imagineer meant when he said
    Yes, it is about money. So, let's just accept that fact and make it into a terrific attraction again.
    Follow me on Twitter: @matthamand

  4. #34

    • враг народа
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    14,261
    Blog Entries
    3

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacksladysparrow View Post
    Fromwhat i've seen here I know a lot of people are very against the pirate themeing because it would change it's land connection, but the way I see it, wouldn't the pirates also pull NOS into the the ROA theme? The animals tie it into critter country and the Mark Twain ties into frontierland, so why not tie the island into new orleans square? just a thought
    The part of New Orleans Square it would be tied to is underground, past a bunch of caverns, and back in time. While the caves and bayou may have a technical purpose (getting outside the berm) they also have a story purpose.

  5. #35

    • Banned User
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    430

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hamand View Post
    Define "triumphs".
    "Takes precedence." "Is more important."

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hamand View Post
    I didn't say that Dickens and Shakespeare weren't artists. I just said that they did their art for pay. Even artists have to make a living.
    True enough, but I'm not debating this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hamand View Post
    Art and commerce aren't mutually exclusive. Just because an artist has to satisfy clients and make a profit doesn't mean that the product can't be good.
    Why does an artist have to satisfy clients and make a profit? Is the purpose of art the satisfaction of clients and the pursuit of profit?

    How does one measure the profit of one attraction when no tickets for individual attractions are sold or received from Guests anymore?

    Rebuild Tom Sawyer's Island, and they will come.

  6. #36

    • white and nerdy
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    I wanna bowl with the gangsters...
    Posts
    3,246

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Shakespeare re-worked stories that were already popular with audiences, including stories that were considered very "flash in the pan" at the time. Henry IV, Othello, and The Merchant of Venice are three examples of many.

    Dickens would change the course of his stories right in the middle to cater to what his audience would buy. If, in the middle of a serial production he discovered that audiences liked a certain character he would radically alter the storyline to include more of that character. The Old Curiosity Shop, Great Expectations, Oliver Twist, and David Copperfield are very well documented cases where Dickens changed his original artistic vision to better fit with the popular opinion.

    And they are all literary masterpieces.

    (Sorry, when you speak Literature you are bound to have a Lit major taking advanced Shakespeare and Advanced Dickens in this semester)


    All the rhetoric aside, this is the exact same argument made when Pirates was going to change, when Haunted Mansion was going to change, when anything changes in Disneyland. It’s purists who bemoan progress, wishing that everything could be like the way it was when they were a kid. Wearing blinders they refuse to accept progress. They can’t enjoy Buzz, they constantly throw hate at DCA, and they reject ideas before they come to fruition.

    I’m excited to have a Pirate Island. Treasure Island, and other pirate tales, are not just some corporate cash cow. The pirate culture is enjoying a re-surfacing due to the movies (which are good movies) but that is no reason to reject an idea. Pirates of the Caribbean was a popular ride when pirates weren’t popular. And, hey, there is an island right across the river from Pirates.
    St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

    "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert





  7. #37

    • white and nerdy
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    I wanna bowl with the gangsters...
    Posts
    3,246

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janie View Post

    Why does an artist have to satisfy clients and make a profit? Is the purpose of art the satisfaction of clients and the pursuit of profit?
    There are two types of artists.
    One, those who are able to either market their artistic ideas to an audince or else produce an artistic version of what people want already.

    Two, those who babble to themselves and starve.

    Which do we want for Disneyland?
    St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

    "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert





  8. #38

    • MiceChat Moderator
    • Collapse the waveform
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    4,206

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janie View Post
    True enough, but I'm not debating this point.
    It sure sounded like you were.
    Why does an artist have to satisfy clients and make a profit?
    Because otherwise the client will not pay the atrist and then, poof, no more art.
    How does one measure the profit of one attraction when no tickets for individual attractions are sold or received from Guests anymore?
    Attendance, surveys, general sense that an audience that isn't familiar with the works of Twain might want something new? I don't know take your pick.
    Rebuild Tom Sawyer's Island, and they will come.
    Or build something new, high quality, and exciting and they will come.
    Follow me on Twitter: @matthamand

  9. #39

    • Banned User
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    430

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by thejoshualee View Post
    Shakespeare re-worked stories that were already popular with audiences, including stories that were considered very "flash in the pan" at the time. Henry IV, Othello, and The Merchant of Venice are three examples of many.

    Dickens would change the course of his stories right in the middle to cater to what his audience would buy. If, in the middle of a serial production he discovered that audiences liked a certain character he would radically alter the storyline to include more of that character. The Old Curiosity Shop, Great Expectations, Oliver Twist, and David Copperfield are very well documented cases where Dickens changed his original artistic vision to better fit with the popular opinion.

    And they are all literary masterpieces.

    (Sorry, when you speak Literature you are bound to have a Lit major taking advanced Shakespeare and Advanced Dickens in this semester)
    OK, that's all fine and good, but neither artist did it because somebody told them they had to because lots of money was on the line. They did it to please their audiences, not to make more money.


    Quote Originally Posted by thejoshualee View Post
    All the rhetoric aside, this is the exact same argument made when Pirates was going to change, when Haunted Mansion was going to change, when anything changes in Disneyland. Itís purists who bemoan progress, wishing that everything could be like the way it was when they were a kid. Wearing blinders they refuse to accept progress. They canít enjoy Buzz, they constantly throw hate at DCA, and they reject ideas before they come to fruition.
    All rhetoric aside, eh? I'm dubious. Disneyland purists aren't offput by change or progress in general, but not all changes equate to progress, and not all changes are positive (Tomorrowland '98 - lot of people hated it then, lot of people still hate it now, and for very good reasons; it was change, but it was NOT progress. It was New Coke - change for the sake of change, in order to try to get more money. That's a lousy reason to change something.) Changes to Disneyland have to fit thematically. And like others have said, although pirate-related things are popular lately because of the POTC films (which, I agree, are good films), eventually they'll fade into the background and the public at large will be onto the next big fad. What Disney is doing is following a popular trend STRICTLY out of a desire to further exploit the concept, based on their greed for more money. This is not well-thought out, and can ruin the thematic quality of that portion of the Park.

    Quote Originally Posted by thejoshualee View Post
    Iím excited to have a Pirate Island. Treasure Island, and other pirate tales, are not just some corporate cash cow. The pirate culture is enjoying a re-surfacing due to the movies (which are good movies) but that is no reason to reject an idea. Pirates of the Caribbean was a popular ride when pirates werenít popular. And, hey, there is an island right across the river from Pirates.
    I don't have a general problem with the idea of a Pirate Island, just in where they're placing it, as well as their justifications for doing so. If Disney wanted to develop a Pirate Island in some other location (say, Disney-MGM Studios), I may not be averse to it. It's getting to be like that really good song you heard on the radio a few months ago that is now heard by EVERYONE every hour of every day. It was a great song the first dozen or so times you heard it. Now, you're sick of it. Why? Because it's been played too much. Overkill. Disney is taking the pirate theme and going insane with it, and even people who enjoy the films and like "pirate culture" (a peculiar term because other than pirate-movie/literature fanboy/fangirl types or actual nautical criminals - or DVD pirates - there is no genuine "pirate culture") are beginning to get their fill of it. Not everyone loved the films, either. Sure, they've made a lot of money, but since when does money = love?

  10. #40

    • MiceChat Round-Up Crew
    • Get the Iodine!
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    17,659
    Blog Entries
    10

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAspace View Post
    Hi I just wanted to share a very powerful exchange between a Ex Imagineer and a current imagineer on the Re-Imagineering website. This is pretty powerful and worth a read. The interesting exchange starts with a post from a anonymous ex imagineer who is responding to todays big post about what most of the current creative imagineers have to say about this TSI pirates replacement (most are very unhappy).



    And now for the powerful reply by one of the current imagineers who is a contributor to the re-imagineering site.



    WELL SAID!

    to view this on your own I suggest first reading the original TSI article on the main page at http://imagineerebirth.blogspot.com/

    The comments can be found at http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blo...07230459026344
    Yeah but these guys are speaking for themselves. They don't represent anything but their own opinions. The current imagineer does not represent the opinions all current imagineers have on this rumored project.

    There may be current imagineers who would actually enjoy making the Island into a pirate theme.

    So just because he said what he said, does not mean all current imagineers share the same opinions and beliefs as he does .

    Or atleast, the is my opinion on the situation .

  11. #41

    • Banned User
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    430

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hamand View Post
    Because otherwise the client will not pay the atrist and then, poof, no more art.
    I see. So all art exists to satisfy the desires of people with money. Now I get it. All art is product, thus all art must accomodate the needs of those with money.

    So the Mona Lisa, that's just "product." The works of Renoir - just mere "product," interchangable with any other product. If the client will pay to consume crap, then crap is what the artist will produce. Right? Is that how it works?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hamand View Post
    Attendance, surveys, general sense that an audience that isn't familiar with the works of Twain might want something new? I don't know take your pick.
    I got an even better idea. Why not just plow all of Disneyland under and start over fresh? No point hanging onto even a shred of the past, right? They're all dead anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hamand View Post
    Or build something new, high quality, and exciting and they will come.
    Maybe. That's what Disney thought about Treasure Planet too.

    Let me remind you of something: Walt Disney said, "Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money."

    The suits in Burbank routinely and very conveniently ignore this.
    Last edited by Janie; 10-06-2006 at 10:07 AM.

  12. #42

    • I'm your huckleberry.
    • Offline

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Ventura County, CA
    Posts
    6,176

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janie View Post
    Is the purpose of art the satisfaction of clients and the pursuit of profit?
    Historically speaking, yes. That has been the sole purpose of art. Art wouldn't exsist without weathly patrons who either paid for commissions, set up artist colonies for their own amusement, or otherwise funded artistic endevors.

    I have a degree in Art History. I cannot think of a major artist, in any medium, from ancient times (read +/- 3000BC) on, who did not work at the whim of his patron, and specifically to make a profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senator David Wu (D-OR)
    Don't let faux-klingons send real Americans to war!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHousingBubbleBlog
    Everyone says that the U.S. doesnít make anything anymore, but thatís not exactly true. Weíre the world leader in the manufacturing of bull****.

  13. #43

    • MiceChat Moderator
    • Collapse the waveform
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    4,206

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janie View Post
    OK, that's all fine and good, but neither artist did it because somebody told them they had to because lots of money was on the line. They did it to please their audiences, not to make more money.
    Why do you think they wanted to please their audiences? Sene of self gratification? Maybe partially. But the reason an artist wants to please their audience is so that the audience will keep coming back. And when the audience keeps coming back then the artist can eat. Repeat customers are important.
    I see. So all art exists to satisfy the desires of people with money. Now I get it. All art is product, thus all art must accomodate the needs of those with money.
    No, art can be both satisfying to the artist and the client. But if someone pays an artist for something it behooves the artist to produce something the client will enjoy.
    So the Mona Lisa, that's just "product." The works of Renoir - just mere "product," interchangable with any other product.
    No, but someone did pay da Vinci and Renoir to produce those pieces. Or paid him for them after the fact. They are not interchangeable but they are products. Someone produced them. And then sold them.
    If the client will pay to consume crap, then crap is what the artist will produce. Right? Is that how it works?
    Often. But I don't think any of us know what the quality of the proposed TSI redo will end up being. I'm just willing to wait and see.
    I got an even better idea. Why not just plow all of Disneyland under and start over fresh? No point hanging onto even a shred of the past, right? They're all dead anyway.
    Jesus, overreact much? The idea is to remake an area that is somewhat dull and under used into something that people will like. Any actual products are years away. And you are reacting like someone just kicked your puppy.

    Give it a chance.
    Maybe. That's what Disney thought about Treasure Planet too.
    Never saw it. I did enjoy Atlantis, which most people seem to hate. So my taste might be suspect.
    Let me remind you of something: Walt Disney said, "Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money."
    My emphasis.
    Follow me on Twitter: @matthamand

  14. #44

    • Member
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Menomonie, Wisconsin, United States
    Posts
    811

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiminyCricketFan View Post
    I agree. But Disney has gutted the Imagineering department. Most of the creative people are gone. Imagineers receive DIRECTIVES as to what to plan and design. I wish that the creative people were really in control, but under Jay Rasulo, they have been castrated.
    I don't think this is necessarily true. The way people here make it sound, the Imagineers were handed what equated to a blank check and told to come up with something good. But if you think about the most classic attractions at the Disney parks, you can start to realize that they were all built on "Directives". New Orleans Square, including the Haunted Mansion and POTC, were a Directive from Walt. He told his Imagineers that he wanted an area of Disneyland to look like New Orleans, with a Pirates attraction and a house of the Supernatural. From there the Imagineers were able to determine what they could do. I kind of feel sometimes that the Imagineers are given a task, and they are given a budget that they do not feel is adequate. But isn't the real task of a designer to come up with the best design possible given their constraints. As a current student of Architecture, I have been taught time and time again that what I design has to meet the requirements of the client. In a way, what this equates too is that, given a budget, the Imagineers fail.

    Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the imagineers, I would like to join their ranks someday, but I have found myself being especially critical of them as of late. It seems to me that some of the attractions that they construct are grossly and even unjustifiably expensive. Other parks are able to construct world-record breaking attractions and nostalgic legends of the Amusement industry for fractions of what WDI spends to build what they consider to be a quality attraction. What if instead of building a unpopular park and then shifting the blame to accounting, they begin to work on creating the most bang for the buck! For instance, I think given their budget, the Imagineers could have done much better than Dino-Rama at DAK. Maybe they have gotten too big for their britches. I know that the original Imagineers worked on even stricter budgets than the current ones do, yet they produced work that continues to entertain and inspire.

    Now given this hypothetical situation, WDI is charged by TWDC to convert TSI into a pirate-themed playground. Now, do they begin by tearing up the island, replotting tunnels and installing new "state-of-the-art" play structures which end up going immensly overbudget causing Burbank to pull their funding before completion? Or do they look more into the integration of older stable elements into an aesthetically pleasing and wholly operational revision of the Disneyland plan? It really is up to them. This is a challenge, no one in design ever gets a Tabula Rasa (blank slate). Being able to work within strict perameters is a constraint of all design. "Blue Sky" is conceptual, but not feasible, the act of making it feasible is the job of the professional, which I still have faith that WDI is.
    In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate.

    DoppelV

  15. #45

    • Vehicle rotating backward
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    4,623

    Re: Powerfull exchange between Ex Imagineer and Current Imagineer.

    I particularly agree with the comment that WDI only had, I don't know, 13 or so YEARS to come up with a useful replacement for TSI that would reconnect with guests. Even when at times it was becoming a huge safety hazard, it still got no WDI Luv.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Imagineer that...yourself!
    By Degaa in forum Disneyland Resort
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 05-07-2007, 08:16 AM
  2. Imagineer for a day
    By bluesky in forum Community Outpost
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-10-2006, 04:47 PM
  3. Imagineer for a day?
    By mycroft16 in forum Disneyland Resort
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-10-2006, 12:40 PM
  4. How I will Become an Imagineer
    By FI183 in forum Disneyland Resort
    Replies: 137
    Last Post: 09-07-2005, 03:31 PM
  5. You're an Imagineer...
    By Tom Chaney in forum Disneyland Resort
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 04-08-2005, 10:38 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •