HM & POTC versus ST & HISTA

[RenMan]

OK, folks, I want your opinions. Rides that are dated and need to be removed or overhauled are a somewhat constant subject around here. I've noticed recent threads like Fishbulb's 11/12/06 Trip Report, where he points out the empty line for Honey, I Shrunk The Audience, and the Renovation of Star Tours? thread where that attraction is regarded as being desperately in need of renovation.

Forget for a moment the recent upgrades/changes to the Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean. Even before those upgrades, the rides were still big draws, the kind of rides you come back to Disneyland to ride again and again.

What's the difference? Is the subject matter of pirates ransacking a village inherently more appealing than a trip to Endor? Or is it the scope/size of HM and POTC that make them continue to "work", decade after decade? Is it the number of animatronics or special effects?

Put differently, could ST or HISTA have been themed/designed differently such that they'd still be drawing large crowds decades later?

[horizonsfan92]

The main problem is that they are films/shows. Even though Star Tours is a simulator it still relies heavily on film. With how competitive hollwood is, things become dated quickly. Especially in the case of HISTA, this was never set in the future, it was designed as a "live" stage show. Another problem with these rides lasting ability is that they're "thrill" rides, which makes the market they can appeal to smaller. ST has an even smaller crowd due to people with motion sickness. And with ST, it has to compete for believability with for instance, M:S. HISTA is considered a thrill in my book because of the use to scare you with mice, snakes, and things in your face. These are the reasons why I believe some attractions meet their demise.

[RenMan]

I was thinking the same thing, regarding the fact that they're essentially films. In POTC and HM, you move through a 3-D environment. We watch movies at home, including Disney ones. We want to do something special at DL.

That's a good point, too, about the motion-simulator part of ST. I can ride on something like that once or twice a day and no more.

[aaronpaulcustoms]

I agree with that..the timelessness that is POTC and HM make them work. I LOVE ST but HM and POTC: the fact that they were created out of...nothing makes them that more magical. HISTA and ST were created from existing films/ideas so a certain exclusitivity(is that a word?) is lost in the ride. You think "I dont need to go to Disneyland to experience Star Wars!" or "No place else has ANYTHING like the Haunted Mansion and watching POTC is cool but the ride at Disneyland is WAY better!"

[RenMan]

^ That's good. I hadn't considered the "original idea vs. movie themed" subject. Much has been said on this forum about that too.

I think that's part of it, but do you think that if an independent film-maker had worked with an original WDI script, that things would be very different?

I'm asking all these questions because I'm wondering what WDI can do in the future to knock out some more timeless E-ticket attractions.

[Vashsky666]

See the bad thing about rides like Star Wars and HISTA next to some like the dark rides like HM and POTC is that they are in completely different genres of ride... if that makes sense... It's tuff to find a "movie ride" like HISTA enjoyable over and over again because when was the last time you went to Disneyland "just" to see a ride like HISTA and Star Tours? They're basically movies! And this is how the general public at Disneyland thinks... because they are like so much of what you can see anywhere, no body wants them at Disneyland.. Sad, but true in this case... I still love rides and shows like Star Tours and HISTA but that's not really why I'm there...

[horizonsfan92]

I had contemplated talking about the fact that they are based on movies but, decided not to. Why? Think about Peter Pan's flight. It too is based on a movie. I'd say it is sort of like of what's been said above, if it was presented in a non-film format it might help it's durability.

[RenMan]

hmmm, OK. Interesting. So 3-D is inherently more interesting than film?

Here's a related question then: what is the future of audio-animatronics? Back in the day when the Tiki room was new, the technological marvel of it (as well as some fun, whimsical theming) made it a premiere E-ticket attraction. Would that fly today? Can people today get as excited about a new AA-laden attraction or does the technology need to be something completely new and different like the Spiderman ride at Universal Orlando?

[horizonsfan92]

I think that today, the story, pacing, and style of attraction must also play along with AA's. The AA's definately have to be a step above the last attraction, as that seems to be the way things go. I think AA's are essential to the disney expeirence. Nothing can compare to them. Many people look to the digital projection for the future but, to me, that seems unsure. AA's will be with disney until the end of disney.

[minnietoo]

I also think Pirates is ageless - folks of all ages love that ride - and HM. STs does not really appeal to the general "older" folks (my thoughts only) - same with HISTA - it is too graphic for the older generation to go on more than once. I think ST and HISTA appeals to younger folks while HM appeals to many more - with POTC appealling to all.

[IndyJn511]

As soon as I take over the park, my first order of business is to remove HISTA. No ifs ands or buts.

[hollywood1939]

See the bad thing about rides like Star Wars and HISTA next to some like the dark rides like HM and POTC is that they are in completely different genres of ride... if that makes sense... It's tuff to find a "movie ride" like HISTA enjoyable over and over again because when was the last time you went to Disneyland "just" to see a ride like HISTA and Star Tours? They're basically movies! And this is how the general public at Disneyland thinks... because they are like so much of what you can see anywhere, no body wants them at Disneyland.. Sad, but true in this case... I still love rides and shows like Star Tours and HISTA but that's not really why I'm there...

This is what I would have said, but you already said it.

[pineapplewhipaddict]

The fact that Star Tours and HISTA are films are major reasons why they don't have a repeatability factor.

However, I would not say that Star Tours does not draw a line. It tends to have a line equal or more to that than BLAB...I very often see the line is a 45 minute wait. The people that are complaining about the state of this attraction are people on this board who tend to visit DL more than others, so we notice when the films are deteriorating, or will express when we feel that since we've been on the ride already so many times, there's nothing new. To this day, and I've livined in So Cal all my life, I find new things to discover on the Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean, even before their updates.

I believe this mostly has to do with animatronics and immersive sets. In Star Tours, you ride in a cabin...and the cabin in reality does not take you anywhere, although the physicality of it is quite fun. The problem is that the movie is pre-recorded and you are guarenteed to see the same thing every time you ride. If the guest has the oppertunity to look around themselves, they'll discover things on their own. Maybe if you look very carefully in the film, you might see something new...but for APs there is just not a huge re-ridability factor, or at least that's the majority of opinions I've seen. As a child, when I came to DL once a year, Star Tours was my favorite ride. I was brought up on the Star Wars films. Now when I go as I please, I'm not much in a hurry to ride this attraction, though I certainly enjoy doing it every now and again.

We also have to take into account that the films are really deteriorating and need some cleaning up (not unlike how HM's scrims need repairing). And perhaps if Lucas had not mentioned how he wished to update the attraction, no one would really be talking about it I think. But the proposed idea to update the attraction would be enjoyable for all types of visitors, as one would never know which movie they would get. And perhaps for every different movie, one would have a different driver. I myself vote for Wicket! ^_^


As for HISTA, the attraction itself was part of TL '98, not a popular thing in the DL addict community, or for most other visitors either. Why? Cutbacks. Really, I think TL '98 could have been very successful if it had been budgeted the way it had been intended. But alas, it wasn't, and we know the result.

HISTA is also based upon a few films that had been made years before the attraction was introduced to DL (and it had already been made at another park, so we just ended up with a copy, another heavy complaint). IMO, by the time the attraction opened at DL, the movies themselves weren't very popular anymore.

It's also a 3D film that uses "cheap gags"...if one went to It's Tough to be a Bug or Muppets 3D, they would see HISTA put to shame. For their genre, they are far superior 3D films, IMO.

The attraction just aged way too fast due to many factors.

[bee1000]

Pirates and HM are integral parts of Disneyland that are unique to Disney and offer you the opportunity to discover something new every time you go on them.

HISTA is a 3D movie whose magic isn't going to impress in multiple viewings, doesn't offer anything new to discover, and which is based on a very dated Rick Moranis movie.

Star Tours' also feels dated and also doesn't offer anything new to discover with multiple experiences. The only thing that is different is that the pilot gets a little more annoying every time.

I hope Star Tours does get redone. It is a very well created experience with a lot in common with Indy. Both are very well thought out attractions with beautiful queues and clever developments inspired by movies without trying to recreate them in ride form.

In hindsight, Star Tours should have been created more like Indy where there were lots of small variations in the story so you wouldn't know exactly what would happen.

[RenMan]

I also think Pirates is ageless - folks of all ages love that ride - and HM. STs does not really appeal to the general "older" folks (my thoughts only) - same with HISTA - it is too graphic for the older generation to go on more than once. I think ST and HISTA appeals to younger folks while HM appeals to many more - with POTC appealling to all.

Ahh, there's another parameter I hadn't factored in: widespread age appeal. Yeah, that's huge. For my money, that's Disney entertainment at its finest, when both young and old can get a big kick out of the same movie or attraction. I think that should be a very high priority for both studio and theme park production.

To this day, and I've livined in So Cal all my life, I find new things to discover on the Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean, even before their updates.

I believe this mostly has to do with animatronics and immersive sets.

...

[HISTA is] also a 3D film that uses "cheap gags"...if one went to It's Tough to be a Bug or Muppets 3D, they would see HISTA put to shame.

Intricacy and detail then are important, at least for repeatability. Yeah, I thought about the "cheap gags" concept. If the ride relies on gimmicks, you're only going to be impressed the first few times. After that, it's "been there, done that." You have to enjoy being immersed in the ride.

In hindsight, Star Tours should have been created more like Indy where there were lots of small variations in the story so you wouldn't know exactly what would happen.

I think you're right, but in practice it's like video game designers trying to make their adventure games replayable by branching the story line. Ultimately it's the same game with some slight variations. For example, I like Indy because it's a fun ride, not because something slightly different is going to happen from one ride to the next. In fact, having only ridden the ride a few times, I can't tell you what the variations were. But I will always want to ride Indy when I go to the park because the ride is fun and the theming so immersive.