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  1. #16

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    But nobody said anything about this...

    Let's build a brand new attraction. Bear Country needs something. Well, what's a great movie? I know! Song of the South!

    Yes, but nobody can see it and we'll never release it on video so it will really mean nothing to people.

    Who cares? In fact, let's even make all the area music come from that film. We'll have singing birds and turtles. You know things that kids and grandparents will particularly like.

    Yeah, and let's get the teenagers in by adding a huge water drop.

    But then won't the grandparents not want to go? And then we'll need a height requirement and kids won't be able to go.

    Yes, kids would definitely love this, but tough! They'll go when they're teenagers and have some money to spend in the parks.

    What scenes will we use from Song of the South? Well, let's do that scene where Br'er Rabbit gets caught in the tar.

    yeah, good idea. But again, a little controversial.

    So change it to honey. Nobody will know.

    Let's do a scene where Br'er Bear is just hanging from a rope, you know like he does in the movie.

    Don't we need to set up the scene in the ride so it makes sense if you haven't seen the movie lately.

    Of course not! People will remember it from the last time the movie was released in theaters and from their pirated copies of the film.

    And let's be sure to use actual quotes from the movie in the queue on wooden signs.

    Okay, but those have African American dialects which might be offensive.

    Well, still use them, but try to use more politically acceptable English in them.

    You know, it maybe costly to have lots of singing birds and animals and other AA figures. How will we get around that?

    Rip out that America Sings attraction and just use those figures!

    But won't everybody see those and realize we took the cheap way out?

    Nah, we'll be creative, like adding bow ties and hats to the characters. Except of course for the vultures. We'll want to remove their hats.

    Okay! This is all planned out except one thing. We'll have a big vacant spot in Tomorrowland in that rotating building. What will do with that?

    I know! Let's just make it offices for now and then worry about it in another seven or eight years! Then we'll put something AMAZING in it!

    Perfect! Sold!

  2. #17

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by localdisnyfan View Post
    We'd rather have a park about California in California with awe inspiring views of downtown Anaheim which would be full of off the shelf carnival rides. Then...when people don't show up, we'll tear down the gates and make it a really, really big shopping mall.

    LOL!!! thats great!!

    you know if we all think we can do a better job, then we should...ok who wants to come up with the first round of funding?? just put it in my paypal account.
    OLM!!!
    There is no better park than TDS


  3. #18

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChimneySweep View Post
    But nobody said anything about this...

    Let's build a brand new attraction. Bear Country needs something. Well, what's a great movie? I know! Song of the South!

    Yes, but nobody can see it and we'll never release it on video so it will really mean nothing to people.

    Who cares? In fact, let's even make all the area music come from that film. We'll have singing birds and turtles. You know things that kids and grandparents will particularly like.

    Yeah, and let's get the teenagers in by adding a huge water drop.

    But then won't the grandparents not want to go? And then we'll need a height requirement and kids won't be able to go.

    Yes, kids would definitely love this, but tough! They'll go when they're teenagers and have some money to spend in the parks.

    What scenes will we use from Song of the South? Well, let's do that scene where Br'er Rabbit gets caught in the tar.

    yeah, good idea. But again, a little controversial.

    So change it to honey. Nobody will know.

    Let's do a scene where Br'er Bear is just hanging from a rope, you know like he does in the movie.

    Don't we need to set up the scene in the ride so it makes sense if you haven't seen the movie lately.

    Of course not! People will remember it from the last time the movie was released in theaters and from their pirated copies of the film.

    And let's be sure to use actual quotes from the movie in the queue on wooden signs.

    Okay, but those have African American dialects which might be offensive.

    Well, still use them, but try to use more politically acceptable English in them.

    You know, it maybe costly to have lots of singing birds and animals and other AA figures. How will we get around that?

    Rip out that America Sings attraction and just use those figures!

    But won't everybody see those and realize we took the cheap way out?

    Nah, we'll be creative, like adding bow ties and hats to the characters. Except of course for the vultures. We'll want to remove their hats.

    Okay! This is all planned out except one thing. We'll have a big vacant spot in Tomorrowland in that rotating building. What will do with that?

    I know! Let's just make it offices for now and then worry about it in another seven or eight years! Then we'll put something AMAZING in it!

    Perfect! Sold!
    Wow. First off, the height requirement was nothing because I was riding this ride in kindergarden/first grade. Second, America Sings was on the chopping block beforehand because it was only meant to celebrate the bicentenial of America. The drop at the end is not frightening, heck Castle Park has a more severe drop. And lastly, you put too much reliance on the film. Remember, there are tons of books covering the stories of Brer Rabbit, many from Disney, which tell the stories you see in the ride. Having read many of these stories written in dialect, I am happy Disney made the signs in the que easier to read. Now kids can read them without feeling stupid.

    Splash Mountain is a huge sucess. The music is wonderful, the immersive sets are gorgeous, and the amount of AAs inside always blows me away. This would have not been possible without the closure of America Sings. It would be far too costly and risky to build that many AAs for a first-of-it's-kind Disney attraction. Even after they knew it worked, they didn't build that many AAs for other park's versions because the number of them is so huge. I would love to have America Sings back, or something like it, but the closure of that attraction made it possible for one of the best Disney attractions ever created.

  4. #19

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Chaney View Post
    OK. Roll back the calendar a few years. Take any person in the USA and imagine having this conversation with them:

    YOU: We'd like your opinion of a few improvements to Disneyland.
    THEM: OK, shoot.
    YOU: Let's start with Tommorowland. We have this skyway that lets people soar over the park and adds an element of movement to the land.
    THEM: Rip it out.
    YOU: OK. We'd like to update the Submarine Voyage.
    THEM: Rip it out.
    YOU: Uh... OK. The People Mover is a little dated, how can we improve that?
    THEM: Rip it out.
    YOU: ...and the Rocket Jets. They're way up high and give a real thrill of height and motion.
    THEM: Replace them with an ugly and incomprehensible kenetic sculpture that plays music.
    YOU: You're not leaving much to do in Tommorowland.
    THEM: OK, then put the rocket thingies on the ground somewhere. Right in the middle of the entrance would be good. Then paint the whole place brown and plant cabbages.
    YOU: Let's move on to another land. How about Fantasyland. We're doing some rearranging. What should we do with the pirate ship restaurant?
    THEM: Rip it out.
    YOU: Maybe we should move on. Adventureland. The Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse is a little dated. Any suggestions?
    THEM: Rip it...
    YOU: STOP! We just want to freshen it up a little.
    THEM: OK, theme it to a newer movie.
    YOU: We have plans to re-make Swiss Family Robinson.
    THEM: Yeah, well, I'll believe it when I see it.
    YOU: Frontierland?
    THEM: Get rid of those bears. Nobody likes those bears! Nobody likes that island place either. Just quit messing with it. Let it fall apart for all I care.
    YOU: OK. Well thank you for your help. We'll begin demolition soon. Any other suggestions?
    THEM: Only one. As long as we're ripping out attractions and letting others fall into disrepair, let's raise admission prices!

    Think the above conversation is implausible?
    I AM LAUGHING SOOOO HARD! Thanks so much for this insight!
    Friend walks into line of The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh-
    "Come on, Let's go see Country Bear- .......Oh."
    -August 1st 2010

    And this elevator traverls directly to The Twilight Zone The Gift Shop!
    -August 2nd 2010

  5. #20

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    I remembered an imginary interview with Ed Grier that I almost submitted a couple of weeks ago but my computer froze so it was lost. Now that we are discussing imaginary discussions, here it is.

    Q:Mr. Grier, thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to aswer a few qustions here on Micechat.

    A: No problem Exjungleskipper95.

    Q: We'd like to know what are your plans for improving Tomorrowland.

    A: We have Nemo! It will be open very soon.

    Q: While we do appreciate the thought, isn't the Nemo attraction really just the Submarine Voyage with new cute characters?

    A: My kids love Nemo. He's a fish, you know, and he lives in the sea.

    Q:We know that. But what about the return of the Peoplemover?

    A: The what?

    Q: Peoplemover. They closed it in 97 to bring in the Rocket Rods.

    A: Never heard of it. Where is it located?

    Q:You see all those empty tracks running all over Tomorrland?

    A: Yes. It's for the train of the future!

    Q:The what?

    A:Train of the future! It goes to the hotel and back.

    Q: Don't you mean the monorail?

    A:Is that what it's called?

    Q:Yes, the monorial is the official name.

    A: Wow. I bet walt disney would have liked it.

    Q:He did. That's why he built it.

    A:Nice.

    Q:What do you plan on doing about the high turnover rate?

    A: Nothing really. We are paying millions of dollars in research to see why employees are leaving but still don't know why. We think it might have something to do with global warming.

    Q: So you don't think that the rate of pay has anything to do with it?

    A:No, of course not! Why, when Walt was running this place the cast members made less than they do now.

    Q:But that was back in the 50's and 60's! The cost of living has changed alot since then.

    A: I don't have a problem with the pay rate. I get paid just fine.

    Q:You also get paid way more than they do.

    A: So? Go to school and get an accounting degree. That's why I'm here.

    Q: So you are saying that starting as a regular cast member won't get anyone to your position.

    A: Right.

    Q:What are your plans for DCA?

    A:I can't comment on that.

    Q:Any new attractions we can look forward to?

    A:Nemo!

    Q: You already mentioned it.

    A: That's all for now.

    Q:Thank you for your time Mr. Grier.

    Aon't forget that we can dream our dreams together. Dream our dreams forever!

  6. #21

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Pay one price = the least number of attraction operating that will still pull in the maximum number of people.

    Pay per experience = ...all those attractions we had in the past operating at full tilt.

    Bring back A - E tickets please
    Waiting for Godot Micechat.com

  7. #22

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Professortango View Post
    Wow. First off, the height requirement was nothing because I was riding this ride in kindergarden/first grade. Second, America Sings was on the chopping block beforehand because it was only meant to celebrate the bicentenial of America. The drop at the end is not frightening, heck Castle Park has a more severe drop. And lastly, you put too much reliance on the film. Remember, there are tons of books covering the stories of Brer Rabbit, many from Disney, which tell the stories you see in the ride. Having read many of these stories written in dialect, I am happy Disney made the signs in the que easier to read. Now kids can read them without feeling stupid.

    Splash Mountain is a huge sucess. The music is wonderful, the immersive sets are gorgeous, and the amount of AAs inside always blows me away. This would have not been possible without the closure of America Sings. It would be far too costly and risky to build that many AAs for a first-of-it's-kind Disney attraction. Even after they knew it worked, they didn't build that many AAs for other park's versions because the number of them is so huge. I would love to have America Sings back, or something like it, but the closure of that attraction made it possible for one of the best Disney attractions ever created.
    Didn't mean to start a debate on this, I hate debates.

    What's fascinating with Disneyland is that the younger people LOVE the newer rides while us older people get more upset when things we love are ripped out. This is true even with things like Pirates. I wish they would leave it alone. update the technology and audio but not put in new styles of characters, while the younger people LOVE the changes. Nobody is right or wrong. It's all opinions. I am still nostalgic for the Carousel of Progress and Florida's COP does nothing for me because it's just not the same. Many of us want to go back to Disneyland and hang on to those things we remember fondly. Certain feelings, smells, songs, and sights. And for me, America Sings was one of my favorites. To this day I cannot see the vultures in Splash without picturing them with their hats on singing about Billy the Kid. I LOVE Splash Mountain, but I still long for the Swamp Boys to sing Polly Wolly Doodle everytime I see them.

    Then again, I still miss the Sooner or Later song before the big lift. It was only there during the soft opening and cast member previews before official opening and yet I can still remember how disappointed I was when they changed it. Sooner or Later was such an incidental part of the original movie but I love Hattie McDaniel and loved that song and thought it worked very well in the attraction with the new lyrics.

    My point with my message is that it was based on something that most people are not familiar with. Sure people can read Joel Chandler Harris' books but most people are not reading them. And even after reading them, it doesn't necessarily make the scenes make sense. Like why Br'er Bear is hanging there in the rope with no explanation anywhere else in the attraction.

    As far as a height requirement, I appreciate you were in kindergarten riding it but I never mentioned a height requirement or referred to a height requirement as you stated. It's not what they allow, it's the fact that most kids, and I'm talking from experience with about ten different kids throughout the years, most kids six years and under are terrified. Not all kids will be scared, but plenty are. They see the characters from the DLRR and want to go but that drop terrifies plenty of kids. That's what I was referring to.

    Those quotes in the queue were not cleaned up from the dialects from the books at all. They were cleaned up from direct quotes in the film that any child could understand. It was not a matter of kids would feel stupid. They would be able to read them fine, it's just not what we consider proper English.

    I, like you, love Splash Mountain but it definitely has its flaws. Most people who ride it don't realize why there is a drop at all. That you are taking the place of Br'er Rabbit by being flung into the briar patch because you are caught by the fox and the only way to escape is to convince the fox that you DON'T want to be thrown in the briar patch. That would be the worst. So therefore he throws the rabbit down the briar patch, but the rabbit is fine because he was born and bred in the briar patch. I bet if you surveyed a couple thousand random riders few if any would understand that. Few if any would realize that the bear is hanging in the rope because the rabbit was caught in a trap and convinced the bear that he'd make a dollar a minute if he let him go and got in the trap himself.

    So you and I both share a love for the attraction and I respect your opposing thoughts.

  8. #23

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    Wink Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Professortango View Post
    A tad too shallow of a delve. The skyway was causing more troubles than the eyesore was worth. Subs had a planned refurb but was cancled. Same with the PeopleMover. they changed it to the next level. The problem is that plussing costs money, and sponors pulled out. I too liked the rockets better on top, but I love the look of the orbitor. TL 98, it had some great ideas, the big problem was budget slashing.

    Swiss Family Robbinson's treehouse was dead. Even as a kid I never wanted to check it out, and I had seen the film. People are incredibly lazy and don't want an attraction where the entire thing is a serries of stairs.

    I loved Country Bears as well, but once again it wasn't a rip it out mentality, it was more "where can we put Pooh." Pooh is a huge cash crop and the Disney heads thought a Pooh ride would bring in more people than an original aged attraction. They probably would have even been correct if they put in a decent attraction.
    It sounds like you were one of the people who came up with ideas for TL98.

    How was the Skyway causing more trouble than it was worth? Seems to me that a boxcar on a cable going back and forth really wouldn't cause much trouble. The PeopleMover was meant as a futuristic mode of transportation, Rocket Rods was hardly the next level. The "look" of the Astro Orbitor is okay, but it would look better way up high where the Rocket Jets used to be. That THING that is up there is lame. It looks stupid and what good is it? What's it supposed to be?
    As far as good ideas in TL98, what were they?

    I liked the Swiss Family Treehouse as a kid. I still would. But I don't mind the Tarzan Treehouse. It's fun. I think Tarzan's treehouse either has more steps or it is higher because when I get down from it, my legs are soooo tired. But it feels good.

    I haven't been on the Pooh ride and I don't think I will either. It couldn't be any better than Snow White or Peter Pan. Other than the original dark rides, I don't like the new dark rides. They're lame. Riding around in a black light setting looking at scenes where the characters don't move.
    They should have kept The Country Bear Playhouse and the CB Jamboree and added Pooh and friends as part of the show.

    I get what the writer was saying with his rant. Whoever the conversation was between, it seems like the solution was to rip it out.

    Oh, spell check people. Spell check.

  9. #24

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by grrandram View Post
    It sounds like you were one of the people who came up with ideas for TL98.

    How was the Skyway causing more trouble than it was worth? Seems to me that a boxcar on a cable going back and forth really wouldn't cause much trouble. The PeopleMover was meant as a futuristic mode of transportation, Rocket Rods was hardly the next level. The "look" of the Astro Orbitor is okay, but it would look better way up high where the Rocket Jets used to be. That THING that is up there is lame. It looks stupid and what good is it? What's it supposed to be?
    As far as good ideas in TL98, what were they?
    I agree with all of the above. The Tomorrowland of Yesterland KICKS BUTT over TL 98. I too miss the Skyway, but with that stupid kid landing in the tree and people spitting all the time and people below getting hit with stuff, and with the current lawsuit-happy mentality, Disney knew that the Skyway would end up costing them a fortune. Funny how the skyway in the San Diego zoo has been running all these years. I think it's still there.

    And also agree that the TL98 rockets are just stupid. I love the Buzz Astroblasters, but those could EASILY have gone in DCA. I miss the Circlevision theater. I miss America Sings. I miss the peoplemover. I miss the Rockets. Thankfully they're bringing back the subs...but I miss the Tomorrowland of Yesterland.

  10. #25

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    i agree

  11. #26

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Chaney View Post
    Budget cuts, of course. But, Disney has a pile o' dough and could have tossed a lot more Disneyland's way. Perhaps, when attractions failed or needed repair they realized that just as many people still came to the park whether the subs or people mover or space mountain was operating or not. What's the point in fixing them up if we're still filling the park and selling plenty of churros? To a corporate-type watching the bottom line, this makes a certain amount of sense.
    Ultimately that's the whole point. I almost feel obligated to say that people are just paying less to get in now, and the results of that are directly reflected in the park.

    It would seem to me, that the reasonable conclusion would be that as attractions and other venues in the park closed, and the overall value of the experience lessened, that there would be a corresponding decrease in attendance. But after watching for many years, that decrease never came. The executives in charge are smart and they know exactly how they can keep people coming in the gate and spend the least amount of money doing so.

    Also, somewhere along the line, the folks in charge decided they were running a "kiddie-land." New attractions were aimed at the very young. "But the kids love it" became the justification for changes. Outside of Fantasyland, Walt's vision for the park was a little more challenging.

    Actually for a long time it seemed most attractions were geared toward adults - with most of the newer ones having height requirements.

    The issue now though is that, to justify spending millions upon millions of dollars on a new attraction - that attraction MUST be modeled after an already existing brand. Disney used to have rules in place for attraction spending - that basically dictated that a ride had to pay for itself within X number of years. Well reopening the submarine voyage and spending 200 million on it would be a risky proposition since it wouldn't make the company much money back. But combining it with Nemo and marketing not just the ride, but the characters along with it, the new ride will be able to draw crowds AND sell merchandise - so it will be able to pay for itself quicker.

    Every new attraction at Disneyland has to be tied into a movie or character of some kind. It just makes it less risky.

  12. #27

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by grrandram View Post
    It sounds like you were one of the people who came up with ideas for TL98.

    How was the Skyway causing more trouble than it was worth? Seems to me that a boxcar on a cable going back and forth really wouldn't cause much trouble. The PeopleMover was meant as a futuristic mode of transportation, Rocket Rods was hardly the next level. The "look" of the Astro Orbitor is okay, but it would look better way up high where the Rocket Jets used to be. That THING that is up there is lame. It looks stupid and what good is it? What's it supposed to be?
    As far as good ideas in TL98, what were they?

    .
    The skyway was causing problems from people swinging cars, spitting on those below, dropping things on them, and just a waiting excuse for a suit happy generation. If we have "artists" breaking in nowadays to put dummy prisoners by Big Thunder, is it that unthinkable that some Johnny Knoxville wannabees might attempt to leap from bucket to bucket as they pass? Disney knew it was only a matter of time and took away the dumb safety risk.

    And I believe Rocket Rods were the next level. Transportation is good, fast transportation is better. That is a central idea of the future. Cars get faster, computers speed up, and everything takes seconds. And I loved the idea of a fast-paced taxi ride of tommorow. When they were working, they made Tommorowland come alive with so much eneregy, it felt like a futuristic city. The problem was, of course, the budget. Sponsors pulled out and much had to be cut, causing a rift between the needed budget and the actual budget. I won't badmouth Disney for coming up with a great innovative new ride, but I will for not properly funding said ride.

    Same with Autopia, another great idea of TL 98. They had many great ideas for the new autopia, and we got the cheapo version. Still, I think out current TL 98 version is much better than the previous version. There is more character to the ride now, and I love the offroading idea (was intended to be about 1/4 of the ride).

    I was also happy about Rocket Red's, a Disney restraunt with decent food and places to sit down inside. I was originally pleased to recieve HISTA, seeing as I had only visited the attraction once at Epcot and was happy I could show the 3D film of the future to my friends. Originally we were all blown away. The problem is we soon had TTBAB and Muppets which are much better experiences and based on less out of date matterial. Still, I prefer HISTA to Capt Eo, I couldn't stomach that show.

    And if you look at TL98's original plan for the carousel theatre, you will see yet another great idea destroyed by budget cuts. Another AA show featuring aliens aboard a spaceship giving us a taste of the different musical hits from the universe. Basically, America Sings and Country Bears with a theme that fits TL. But cut cut here, snip snip there and we got Innoventions.

    The new Subs were supposed to be the new Indy. They would pitch and roll when attacked by a sea monster, the cabin would crumble a tad and spring leaks, Alien Encounter tech in a darkened portion. But too costly and risky.

    So there you have it, some great ideas for TL98. There were even a few others, such as a ride which would climb up the side of a building or something, but these "out of the box" ideas were quickly smashed due to costs.

    Even with the screw ups, I prefered TL98's opening day to the years before the upgrade. Circle Vision was a bore, Capt Eo was just sad, Mission to Mars left many either confused or laughing due to the lack of ride (looking at a screen with seats that drop one inch), The PeopleMover was okay, but the Tron tunnel was incredibly dated and laughable, unthemed autopia, and empty America Sings building. I understand the power of nostalgia, but TL has always been a weak point. TL 98 was deffinately strong, the problem was it all came crashing down because somebody decided to build it out of breadsticks and glue.

  13. #28

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Tear out the Bears? Nah, never happen. Why not just tear out America Sings, Circlevision and Inner Space as well? You're dreamin'.

  14. #29

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    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by ExJungleSkipper95 View Post
    I remembered an imginary interview with Ed Grier that I almost submitted a couple of weeks ago but my computer froze so it was lost. Now that we are discussing imaginary discussions, here it is.

    Q:Mr. Grier, thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to aswer a few qustions here on Micechat.

    A: No problem Exjungleskipper95.

    Q: We'd like to know what are your plans for improving Tomorrowland.

    A: We have Nemo! It will be open very soon.

    Q: While we do appreciate the thought, isn't the Nemo attraction really just the Submarine Voyage with new cute characters?

    A: My kids love Nemo. He's a fish, you know, and he lives in the sea.

    Q:We know that. But what about the return of the Peoplemover?

    A: The what?

    Q: Peoplemover. They closed it in 97 to bring in the Rocket Rods.

    A: Never heard of it. Where is it located?

    Q:You see all those empty tracks running all over Tomorrland?

    A: Yes. It's for the train of the future!

    Q:The what?

    A:Train of the future! It goes to the hotel and back.

    Q: Don't you mean the monorail?

    A:Is that what it's called?

    Q:Yes, the monorial is the official name.

    A: Wow. I bet walt disney would have liked it.

    Q:He did. That's why he built it.

    A:Nice.

    Q:What do you plan on doing about the high turnover rate?

    A: Nothing really. We are paying millions of dollars in research to see why employees are leaving but still don't know why. We think it might have something to do with global warming.

    Q: So you don't think that the rate of pay has anything to do with it?

    A:No, of course not! Why, when Walt was running this place the cast members made less than they do now.

    Q:But that was back in the 50's and 60's! The cost of living has changed alot since then.

    A: I don't have a problem with the pay rate. I get paid just fine.

    Q:You also get paid way more than they do.

    A: So? Go to school and get an accounting degree. That's why I'm here.

    Q: So you are saying that starting as a regular cast member won't get anyone to your position.

    A: Right.

    Q:What are your plans for DCA?

    A:I can't comment on that.

    Q:Any new attractions we can look forward to?

    A:Nemo!

    Q: You already mentioned it.

    A: That's all for now.

    Q:Thank you for your time Mr. Grier.

    Aon't forget that we can dream our dreams together. Dream our dreams forever!
    ok..this one had me laughing !!
    Mark

    Contribute to my Johari or start your own!!
    http://kevan.org/johari?view=MarkS01



  15. #30

    • My laughing place
    • Offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Pretty close to Disneyland
    Posts
    789

    Re: How plausible is this...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Ultimately that's the whole point. I almost feel obligated to say that people are just paying less to get in now, and the results of that are directly reflected in the park.
    umm..I think you mean..paying MORE and getting LESS.
    Mark

    Contribute to my Johari or start your own!!
    http://kevan.org/johari?view=MarkS01



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