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  1. #16

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    I agree with Master Gracey except... I think HMH should be gone forever. I hate visiting in Christmas/Halloween and not being able to ride the classic. If Disneyland wants to have a NBC ride, then build one. Stop renting the mansion out for 3 months every year. I'm not saying this because I don't like NBC, I really do... I just think the Mansion is too great of a ride to shut down 5 months every year.

  2. #17

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    I love the HMH. I understand the frustration of not having the normal version when visiting (I had to take off to go in Sept to see the changes to the normal mansion), but the HMH has such a great energy to it. Each chamber builds into the next wonderfully with the music and poetry. I also think the HMH knows what it is as opposed to the normal mansion. The normal mansion suffers from too many interpretations. Spooky sometimes, horrific at times, and silly at the end. It really needs a clear focus. HMH on the other hand links together perfectly from start to finish. And my biggest reason for loving HMH, that amazing Jack AA.

  3. #18

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    The typically chilling and unsettling attic America is made into a funhouse of bright colors and goofy music, all in the name of Christmas.
    With a word change, this can describe Christmas alltogether.

    As for HMH, I'm indifferent about it. Look at the crouds it draws (even on non-busy weekends). There's a reason they do it year after year, the normal (see: Not nit-picky, overcaring about the true HM*) guests love it. And when it comes to Disney's bottom dollar, they want that normal guest in there to spend as much as possible, and HMH is part of that.

    Plus, none of the holiday layovers came from WDI, they we're an entertainment offering (so Pressler/Harris could do it on the cheap).

    *Generic term used to describe the many people that dislike HMH. Your mileage may vary.
    -Monorail Man

  4. #19

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by demento57 View Post

    My biggest beef with HMH is the crappiness of the Leota room. It took me several trips before I realized it was revolving (no pun intended) around the 12 Days of Xmas. The audience doesn't spend enough time in the room to get that full story.
    really? I noticed that the first time thorugh and I love the tarot cards.

  5. #20

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by ecdlanddude View Post
    I agree with Master Gracey except... I think HMH should be gone forever. I hate visiting in Christmas/Halloween and not being able to ride the classic. If Disneyland wants to have a NBC ride, then build one. Stop renting the mansion out for 3 months every year. I'm not saying this because I don't like NBC, I really do... I just think the Mansion is too great of a ride to shut down 5 months every year.

  6. #21

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by cellarhound View Post
    I am not 100% convinced Master Gracey...

    I don't think the execution is as poor as you claim for the overlay it is... I think it is a much better execution than better than IASW Holiday, or even Pooh.... Both pretty much designs round the same period... When it was installed, I believe it was the best thing to come out of WDI durring this time period for Disneyland in a very long time.
    "it's a small world" holiday, in my opinion, is executed far better than Haunted Mansion Holiday.

    "it's a small world" holiday maintains the original style and flair of its original Imagineers, including Mary Blair.

    Haunted Mansion Holiday essentially throws away the creative work of its Imaginners, expecially Claude Coats who worked his magic creating immersive surroundings and compelling mood and tone of the first half of the Mansion: (i.e. The Hallway to Limbo, Corridor of Doors, etc). The overlay, also pushes Marc Davis' characters and clever gags to the back in favor of pointing the spotlight on the Nightmare Before Christmas characters, instead of having Mansion residents and Nightmare characters working together to create an entertaining experience.


    In "it's a small world" holiday, guests are greeted with a seamless weaving of the holidays into the classic attraction. Styles of new set pieces match those of existing set pieces, unlike in Haunted Mansion Holiday where 2D painted flats are mixed in with the Mansion's 3D set pieces. Garish, bright colors clash with the Mansion's typical gloom which has been pushed to the background as the bright colors take center stage. And it seems as though Jack Skellington has taken no consideration for how his holiday makeover is affecting the Mansion and it's permanent residents.... I mean, did Jack forget the lesson he learned in his movie?

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  7. #22

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Wow! Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion, but the crowds that flock to HMH each year don't seem to agree with you. Personally, I think it's essential for Disney to reinvent their classic rides or they will turn into boring "museum pieces". A simple overlay has brought new life (and crowds) to both the HM and IASM. I think it's a great thing!!!

  8. #23

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    The Stretching Gallery
    This is simultaneously my most favorite and least favorite part of the layover.
    The music/narration/lighting make my skin crawl with delight everytime I go on it. The ambiance and dramatic tension the scene builds is fantastic.
    This is something the Haunted Mansion could learn from its holiday counterpart. If there were some way to integrate that sort of mood into the original mansion, I'd be thrilled. I'd love to see how it could work.
    Solutions? I'd say maybe see a hole in the roof leading to the outside with Jack's Sleigh seen retreating though the shattered roof.
    Or a Jack AA saying the lines, while hanging from the ceiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Hallway to Limbo

    The cardboard cutouts of the odd jazz band outside the window (???????) take away a lot of attention from the snow in the thunderstorm (a good ???). Original has had this scene plussed to an extent that it makes this look laughable. I think the scene needs to use that technology and scrap the band thing.
    Disagree on the busts, MG.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Limbo/The Load Area
    Garrrgh... This section is all out of wack in the Original Mansion, anyways.
    As for the holiday version, the cut-out tackiness can get out of the mansion with all haste for all I care. I'd like to see the limited "limbo" theme that already exists integrated into the Holiday version. Imagine through the fog seeing Jack's sleigh heading off into the distance. And Imagine seeing Oogie Boogie's sillouhette laughing show up every once in awhile.
    Also, the loud music shows just how old and antiquated the speaker system is in that area and, for that matter the whole mansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    The Corridor of Doors
    .
    NAAAA NA NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA NAAAA, NAAA NA NA NA NA NAAAA, NA NA NA NA NAAAAA! HAHHAHAHAHHA!!!

    BKLEJALJELKA:LKJFLEjlk!!

    Okay, aside from the loud, annoying, obnoxious plant things, that part of the Mansion also brings into focus how desperately the mansion needs its entire speaker system re-built, much like Pirates had earlier this year. The soundtrack has the sort of acoustic nuances that neccesitate better speakers.


    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    The Seance Circle
    .
    Agreed. And she's not floating.
    And... hey! It's a ceiling!

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    The Ballroom
    .
    This works. The tree, though... I mean, it's cool that they're dancing through the tree, but... why? Ah well. Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    The Attic
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    This is so annoying. I don't like how it completely interrupts the flow of the attraction at this point. It could be worked out better in the scope of NBC. Don't know how.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    The Graveyard
    Love the graveyard, love the song... don't like how it exposes the flaws in the speaker system. They all need replacing, including the (underused) busts. It would be much better if we could hear the song without distortion. This part, I like.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    The Solution...
    - Get rid of the excessive blacklighting which is required because of cheap plywood cut-outs, or additions that neither contribute properly to the overlay or complement the original attraction.
    Rather than focusing on the number of effects focus on the quality of effects that are there... less need for the blacklite.

    I think it works for what it is... an on-the-cheap-overlay. After several years, WDI should have managed to pull together some new effects and better ways of getting the existing ones to connect with the audience better.
    I'd say they just need to "plus" this overlay, but it's popularity make it unlikely.

    All in all, MG, you've got some good complaints there, and it's good to see some of the same ones I've had shared!

  9. #24

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by MonteJ View Post
    Wow! Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion, but the crowds that flock to HMH each year don't seem to agree with you. Personally, I think it's essential for Disney to reinvent their classic rides or they will turn into boring "museum pieces". A simple overlay has brought new life (and crowds) to both the HM and IASM. I think it's a great thing!!!
    I never said that the Mansion should remain the same. In fact, I've said the Haunted Mansion Holiday is a good idea, it just isn't properly executed.

    I'm all for a good overlay, but it really should be done well and the overlay should be something that works well with the attraction it is being implemented at.

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  10. #25

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    You have got to be kidding me. Haunted Mansion Holiday is one of the few things Disneyland has gotten right in the past decade.

    Holiday isn't meant to be the Haunted Mansion. It's about some kind of fusion of Halloween and Christmas that invades the Mansion for three or four months. If it makes you so antsy don't go on it and wait for it to be restored to normal.

    If it was as subtle and subdued as you want it to be, it wouldn't be in the spirit of The Nightmare Before Christmas.

  11. #26

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    I mean, did Jack forget the lesson he learned in his movie?
    If we're talking a story timeline, then HMH takes place before the end of the movie. It seems to take place in the time period right before he finds the disaster that his Christmas causes (See: Him flying away at the end of HMH.) . So, I would say that he hasn't learned his lesson yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    And it seems as though Jack Skellington has taken no consideration for how his holiday makeover is affecting the Mansion and it's permanent residents....
    Which is exactly what Jack did in the movie. He had no consideration for Christmas, he just wanted to do it. Hence, no consideration for the Mansion.
    -Monorail Man

  12. #27

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by SpokkerJones View Post
    You have got to be kidding me. Haunted Mansion Holiday is one of the few things Disneyland has gotten right in the past decade.

    Holiday isn't meant to be the Haunted Mansion. It's about some kind of fusion of Halloween and Christmas that invades the Mansion for three or four months. If it makes you so antsy don't go on it and wait for it to be restored to normal.

    If it was as subtle and subdued as you want it to be, it wouldn't be in the spirit of The Nightmare Before Christmas.
    What is up with members on this board telling people not to go on attracions? I never said I hated Haunted Mansion Holiday, and whether I do or don't isn't important to this discussion.

    Haunted Mansion Holiday isn't the Haunted Mansion? No, it's an overlay. However, its an overlay that takes place in an existing attraction, therefore it should stay true to and compliment that existing attraction. Haunted Mansion Holiday is still the Haunted Mansion whether you like it or not. Therefore, the overlay should remain true to the original attraction, while creating a fresh and entertaining spin on the classic. My gripe is that the Haunted Mansion Holiday overlay fails to remain true to the original because it's struggling too hard to shine the spotlight on the film. I believe that the two can work seamlessly together, much like the original "it's a small world" works perfectly with it's holiday counterpart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monorail Man View Post
    If we're talking a story timeline, then HMH takes place before the end of the movie. It seems to take place in the time period right before he finds the disaster that his Christmas causes (See: Him flying away at the end of HMH.) . So, I would say that he hasn't learned his lesson yet.



    Which is exactly what Jack did in the movie. He had no consideration for Christmas, he just wanted to do it. Hence, no consideration for the Mansion.
    If the attraction is supposed to take place before he realizes his mistake, then his lack of consideration makes sense. I stand corrected on that issue. Thanks

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  13. #28

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    When Haunted Mansion Holiday first opened, I was relieved because it didn't do as much damage as I had expected. Since that time, several show elements have been added that do ruin parts of the mansion, such as the busts with the cobwebs and the ghosts dancing through the Christmas tree. Similarly, some of the black-lit stage flats, especially at the boarding area, do look cheap, unconvincing, and out of place. And, the mannequins and other more stylized decorations outside the mansion are not in keeping with Disneyland's literal fiction or Frontierland's New Orleans Square, so those pieces, too, need to be removed. I also prefer Lock, Shock, and Barrel, who originally appeared at the end, to Oogie Boogie since they paralleled the hitchhiking ghosts.

    The essential question, though, is: How does Jack Skellington and his Halloweentown cohorts relate to the existing story of The Haunted Mansion?

    The museum-of-the-weird concept is the key. Rolly Crump and Tim Burton are really quite similar in their styles as artists. And, the mansion is supposed to have always been filled with strange items that have been collected from around the world, ostensibly by the master of the house. So, one of these objects must be the key that permits passage between The Haunted Mansion's world and Halloweentown and Christmastown. The current version of the attraction needs to explain this concept better and refine the attraction so that everything is consistent with the internal logic of the story.

    The Nightmare before Christmas at the Haunted Mansion has the potential to work very well, creatively-speaking. But, Disney needs to exercise more care in the way the holiday version integrates with both Frontierland and the original version.

  14. #29

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    To all the nay sayers:

    BAH HUMBUG!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Foolish Mortal


  15. #30

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Hmm...

    I was going to respond based on the first page of this thread, but then I read the other pages and realized that my sentiments had already been voiced. Yes, HMH is based on the theme in Nightmare Before Christmas of Jack Skellington's overzealous enthusiasm of taking over Christmas. In essence he has taken over the Mansion and re-did it in his own loud and obnoxious way.

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