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  1. #31

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    Hmm...

    I was going to respond based on the first page of this thread, but then I read the other pages and realized that my sentiments had already been voiced. Yes, HMH is based on the theme in Nightmare Before Christmas of Jack Skellington's overzealous enthusiasm of taking over Christmas. In essence he has taken over the Mansion and re-did it in his own loud and obnoxious way.
    Thats how I see it...its not about integration or explaining the logic...Pre-lesson learned Jack INVADES the Mansion and makes it over for Christmas. End of story. Simple, fun and popular.

  2. #32

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by Monorail Man View Post
    If we're talking a story timeline, then HMH takes place before the end of the movie. It seems to take place in the time period right before he finds the disaster that his Christmas causes (See: Him flying away at the end of HMH.) . So, I would say that he hasn't learned his lesson yet.
    ...
    Which is exactly what Jack did in the movie. He had no consideration for Christmas, he just wanted to do it. Hence, no consideration for the Mansion.
    Exactly. And I don't think the individuals who came up with this project wanted to touch the sad ramifications of it all. Since it's Christmas, it should be cheerful.

    MasterGracey, as a whole, and as MonorailMan already pointed out, Christmas is tacky and gaudy. Just take a stroll down your neighborhood streets >_< If you want a pretty Christmas, take a walk down Main Street instead. Fact of the matter is, in the context of the story, Jack is uber excited about taking over Christmas, and interprets it his and the monsters' way. It's going to look ugly. It's the nature of the beast. What's pretty about giant angels with pumpkin heads? But it's exactly what those creatures would want.

    That wreath has always scared the bejesus out of me. It's serving it's purpose. It doesn't need to try to bite you...it's trying to grab you.

    I've never noticed all of those tiles etc. that you mentioned with the overlay up, and I see HMH fairly often now. I think you were actually looking for them. But I guess that's a matter of opinion.

    I don't think there's any reason why Haunted Mansion Holiday should have to mimic it's former self. We're dealing with totally different stories here.

  3. #33

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    As far as Jack learning his lesson, if you listen to the original CD it has a narration at the end as well as the beginning. The narration has Jack much older and being asked if he would do it all again knowing what he knows now, and he says yes.

    So, no matter where the overlay takes place in the NBC mythos, it makes sense for Jack to do it because he still thinks it was worth it all.

  4. #34

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    I love the HMH and I think it has been a very successful idea. Can't please everyone I guess! There will always be some complainers no matter what changes Disney does.
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  5. #35

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    I think you're all missing MG's point.
    The idea, he says, is good and has lots of potential.
    However, the execution of this idea fails to live up to both Nightmare Before Christmas (also pretty creepy) and the original Haunted Mansion. He's not saying he hates it or it should go away soon. He's just saying it doesn't quite work. Read the first post closer!

  6. #36

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    I'm not convinced that in order to get Jack Skellington's story across, we need to be subjected to obnoxiousness throughout the Mansion.

    The incredibly obnoxious singing flowers are unnecessary. The cheap painted plywood flats are unnecessary. The overuse of black lights lighting up the Mansion are unnecessary.

    Jack's vision can be possible in the Mansion without the use of tackyness and on-the-cheap.

    Sure, Jack's Christmas in the film was tacky. But painted 2D plywood flats simply do not mix well in the 3-demensional realm of the Mansion. There are different kinds of tacky - and painted plywood flats, excessive black lights, and obnoxious singing are the wrong kind of tacky.


    Quote Originally Posted by mrfantasmic View Post
    I think you're all missing MG's point.
    The idea, he says, is good and has lots of potential.
    However, the execution of this idea fails to live up to both Nightmare Before Christmas (also pretty creepy) and the original Haunted Mansion. He's not saying he hates it or it should go away soon. He's just saying it doesn't quite work. Read the first post closer!
    Thank you!


    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist
    When Haunted Mansion Holiday first opened, I was relieved because it didn't do as much damage as I had expected. Since that time, several show elements have been added that do ruin parts of the mansion, such as the busts with the cobwebs and the ghosts dancing through the Christmas tree. Similarly, some of the black-lit stage flats, especially at the boarding area, do look cheap, unconvincing, and out of place. And, the mannequins and other more stylized decorations outside the mansion are not in keeping with Disneyland's literal fiction or Frontierland's New Orleans Square, so those pieces, too, need to be removed. I also prefer Lock, Shock, and Barrel, who originally appeared at the end, to Oogie Boogie since they paralleled the hitchhiking ghosts.

    The essential question, though, is: How does Jack Skellington and his Halloweentown cohorts relate to the existing story of The Haunted Mansion?

    The museum-of-the-weird concept is the key. Rolly Crump and Tim Burton are really quite similar in their styles as artists. And, the mansion is supposed to have always been filled with strange items that have been collected from around the world, ostensibly by the master of the house. So, one of these objects must be the key that permits passage between The Haunted Mansion's world and Halloweentown and Christmastown. The current version of the attraction needs to explain this concept better and refine the attraction so that everything is consistent with the internal logic of the story.

    The Nightmare before Christmas at the Haunted Mansion has the potential to work very well, creatively-speaking. But, Disney needs to exercise more care in the way the holiday version integrates with both Frontierland and the original version.
    Agreed.

    However, I do think that the outside overlay of the Mansion is probably the only good thing about the overlay. Its done well - the candles at night look absolutely magical and tells us something is certainly different about the Mansion. And Jack's sleigh on the roof explains how Jack got here and what he's doing. And the removal of the scarols this year in favor of Paris' music box audio was a step in the right direction. What certainly needs to go, however, is the "Haunted Mansion Holiday" banner/arch over the Mansion's gates, and the Jack Skellington still figure with his spinning snowflake.
    Last edited by MasterGracey; 12-25-2006 at 02:41 PM.

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  7. #37

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    The show to me is pretty good. To me though, in the original the inside is so foreboding. In the overlay, it's like a party. There is almost nothing to put you into suspense. You enter and boom! It all hits you (Not Literally). Unlike in the original when the climax builds up. Once you enter the elevator, it doesn't build up! In that way it is kind of a letdown because you freak out at the beginning and by the end you're all calm unlike in the original when you have just begun to freak out when the ride starts and you freak out in about the ballroom.
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  8. #38

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Welp... I'm a Mansion Freak, so I will go ahead and give my 2 cents.

    I love Haunted Mansion Holiday. I got to visit last year for a day. I actually think I spent the entire day going there and Pirates. Anywho, here is what I like and dislike.

    I love the foyer. There is nothing wrong there.

    I love the stretch room, the stained glass is a great alternative. I understand the climax with the Jack head though. I would much rather see the ceiling disappear with Jack standing up above on a ledge, holding a rope to his big bag of presents swaying around (with a quick drop before the lights go out, and still a thud of presents falling everywhere).

    I like the portrait hall as is. Nothing wrong there. If they really wanted to go all out, they could have swapped the busts with Jack and Sally staring busts. Wouldn't have been too hard.

    Load Hall... Yeah... I don't hate it, but I don't love it. I know they could do a lot more, but only if they took the original scene itself and did more. Its kind of a blank area. Now if they added in a staircase in there like Phantom Manor and then put a huge XMAS tree on the landing, that would be more amazing to me.

    Endless hall is fine.

    Conservatory is fine. Not sure how I like the manic plants however. They sound too much like drunk Gremlins to me. Not really sure how to fix that one.

    Seance is excellent. They kept this scene very well done. Sometimes I feel that Kim Irvine fits the face more than her mother did. I feel that since they are all cards that you can see and read, that they are more intact with the scene since she is actually saying what is on them.

    Ballroom. Again, excellent. The gingerbread houses haven't really disappointed me yet... except for that Oogie one that didn't make much sense. But everything else is great.

    I can agree some part with the attic. I don't like the music much in this area. However, I think its brilliant to hide all of the presents in the attic. The kids would never think to look there. Plus, each year they keep plussing the gifts in there, such as the basket of dynamite sticks with lit fuses.

    The graveyard is excellent. Sure, you can see the scrim in spots, but thats not amazingly distracting. Yeah, you can see the ceiling tiles, but heck, regular mansion has this problem too.

    Not sure what I think of Oogie at the end. I don't like the giant metalic boxes and wall around the mirrors. I perfer the original skulls and banners myself.

    Thats about it. I like Haunted Mansion Holiday, but then again, I love pretty much every aspect of Haunted Mansion.

  9. #39

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Here is the problem with the whole talk about the sets looking cheap because they are ply wood and what not.... This is a overlay a temp thing for a couple of months not the whole year plus christmas as a whole it is bright and sort of happy even in the nightmare before christmas they just dont know ow to do it right. I think the ride fits the movie well but with that said.... I sort of like it and sort of dont. I just think they use way to much black light and the attic to me is annoying!
    The earth is round.... or so i've found.

  10. #40

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    I am going to say just this: Tim burton is nucking futs.

    (use your imagination as to why I switched the lettering around on the last two words.)

  11. #41

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    ... I just can't figure it out.

    Aside from that... what does that mean for the mansion?

  12. #42

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    I totally agree with the original poster. HMH needs to go away.

  13. #43

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryancr78 View Post
    I totally agree with the original poster. HMH needs to go away.
    I didn't say Haunted Mansion Holiday should go away. I said it was poorly executed and the idea has immense potential.

    But I didn't say it should go away.

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  14. #44

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    Everything I want to say has been said, but I'll just echo a few..

    -I don't like quick fixes, but this attraction IS one of them, and they did a FANTASTIC job with it. It gets better and better each year. Do I wish the black lit cut outs were replaced with something that looked much better? Definitely! They've already improved the scene with Oogie Boogie at least! That used to be a horrible cut out with Lock, Shock & Barrel. Now it's a full sized animatronic. How's that for stepping it up a notch?

    -I love the original Haunted Mansion and I love Nightmare Before Christmas. Both involve the living dead... that's how that marriage was forged. (and it's a dark ride that can eat a ton of guests). Jack's christmas was a failure and that's what makes the Haunted Mansion holiday fun. It's supposed to be obnoxious!

    -The Haunted Mansion... well.... it's not Haunted Mansion anymore during the holidays. It's pretty much an all new ride. Will a separate NBX ride work? Probably, but where would it go?

    -I love it, and I'm glad we have it and not WDW.


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  15. #45

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    Re: Haunted Mansion Holiday: The problem with Jack Skellington

    The Haunted Mansion Holiday is a great overlay, don't get me wrong. But I agree, it does take away the spookyness and charm that the original Haunted Mansion offers. Let alone the originality of what the Imagineers had designed this ride for.

    The "Holiday" offers a lot of good offerings such as the new "Strech Room" (my personal favorite with the new paintings and dialog), the Jack Skullton (sp) AI, and I like the Graveyard with the 'pumpkins' and whatnots.

    I see it this way. The overlay needs to goto WDW and leave DLR alone for a year or two. If this is how it has to be for DLR to get people into their gates maybe they should look at other attractions to make an overlay work. If not, maybe doing a Tiki Room or other (name your attraction here) for a Xmas overlay.

    Otherwise, I love the Nightmare Before Xmas HM attraction as well as Small World's. They both work and year after year they can make them better.

    If they can do it, with Space Mountain and Screamin', let's give them a chance! (they did it before!)

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