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  1. #46

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
    You make some good points but assuming we must keep fastpass(which I am doing in this thread only...frankly I'd like to see the entire system dropped altogether) and assuming it needs to be improved wouldn't making it more simple(which I think my plan does) for guests to use and more fair be better than introducing an even more complicated system(kind of like this runon sentence of mine) that could be massaged even more by those who are fastpass savy?
    Only if simplifying = improving. That's kind of an abstract value judgment.

    The purpose of fastpass is managing arrival times for load balancing and improving guest satisfaction by allowing some of them - the willing - to avoid standing in long(er) lines in return for postponing their enjoyment. A secondary not not unimportant goal is to free some of them from having to stand in lines where they can't be buying food and merchandise that contributes massively to Disney's bottom line. Caouls solve that by adding queue-hawkers to the rides :-)

    And it needs to be simple enough that it can be reliably and quickly and easily used by large numbers of people in a short time. Some of the complex systems proposed in this thread fail that test. There's not a lot of point having guests stand in lines to use a fp issuing system whose purpose is to reduce the amount of time they spend standing in lines for rides. Discounting the excitement of using the machines themselves, of course ...

  2. #47

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffYardDog View Post
    Like all the other ideas presented in this thread it's an interesting and creative idea that has at least one of two issues:

    1. Does it really solve the fundamental problems or does it merely layer more regimentation on the guest processing without a clear and significant benefit. In particular, are there large numbers of guests with multiple fastpasses around causing a problem ? Is what you characterize as abuse really an abuse and in what way ?

    2. It requires a significantly more complex and risky guest processing system with all the scanners that can fail and which also slow down processing them onto the rides. What's the cost-benefit tradeoff here ?
    1. No, it doesn't solve it and yes it does require more processing, but It was my understanding of thee system that you are only supposed to have 1 fp in hand at a time. Through loopholes of networked systems and the 2 hours until you can get more, yes this can be abused. Is it? Not sure, I on't have that knowledge, but I do know that there are many people that know about it.

    2. As for scanners failing, I don't think that would be a real concern. The fastpasses are already tied to your ticket/AP. As for the cost-benefit tradeoff, ou got me there. There isn't really one, I was just looking to a way that would make the fast pass system work more like a place holder in line.

    But I will say, here is what I consider one of the pitfalls to what I have suggested (I didn't say mine would work.) From my experience, Disney does not want to cause guest hardship (unless of course it involves illegal acts or personal safety) so they go out of their way to accomodate bad situations. The problem I see is that when someone grabs a second fp (which by my system would void the first) there would be a confrontation with the CM when the guest was told that their first one was no longer valid. And at this point the CM would allow them to ride anyway and warn them not to do it again (and we know what that means.) To prove this, here is what happened last night on Space Mountain. We were returning to ride at night with fps. When we got to the point where the CM actually takes the fps and lets you in, there were four people there digging through their pockets and wallets saying that they had them just a minute ago. After we passed, the CM let them proceed and they were talking behind us and one of them said, "Good one, he fell for it."
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  3. #48

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Even though FP allows me to stand in a queue for a shorter amount of time (which is important because of health issues), I'd rather see the system abandoned completely.

    I hate what FP has done to existing queues built before its implementation. I hate the fact that standby lines for some attractions, like Splash, are always lengthy, with FP running out by early afternoon. And I hate the bottleneck of guests who malinger at the entrance, blocking pedestrian flow while waiting for their FP windows to open.

    I feel FP creates more problems than it solves. It should just go away.
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  4. #49

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by aashee View Post
    I really dislike the idea of having a pay per view fast pass system. How would it work for AP? $500 for premium with unlimited fastpasses? It just has too many aspects to make it fair. Remember the idea behind Fastpass is to hold your place in line. While it's not perfect it works for a lot of people.

    Without fastpass, I wouldn't ride SplashMountain in the summer. 90-120 minute waits just isn't worth it to me. I know without fastpasses the regular line wouldn't be as long, but it would still be a very long wait.

    Fix the system if you think it's broke, I personally don't. But please don't copy lesser parks by creating a VIP ticket. How some people act at Disneyland, they already think they are VIPs without a card saying so.

    Chad
    I'm totally with you on this!

  5. #50

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    JeffYardDog, what do you see as FastPass' flaws? I think sleepyjeff's idea of limits pased on ticket price nails the problem right on the head. The problem, as I have gathered, is a user base that visits semi to quite frequently and savy internet users. Instead of people waiting in lines they are out in the park collecting FastPasses running from attraction to attraction. The guest experience is hindered by the crowding.

    If FastPass was limited price ($10 = FastPass of choice) frequent visitors are placed into the lines. This is a huge portion of the Disneyland user base that would no longer be using loopholes and not stand in line.

    Vacationing guests aren't really affected as estimates place the average guest at experiencing 8 - 10 attractions a day. Vacationers could get a FastPass, with an enforced time window, and wait for its time window in the area, knowing everybody is limited.

    Now here's the best part: capacity. It seems everybody agrees that a proper FastPass: Stand Bay ratio is critical. With no enforcement on time windows, plus plenty in the know there is a lot of people showing up for FastPass usage, at the detriment to the Stand By line. Limiting acces could prevent FastPasses running out or issuing times many hours in advance. People won't let their time pass or just grab them as an "in case we get time after our window passes". As it stands FastPass has no value and that knowledge is used by those who know that. If FastPass were given a value its rules would be better followed and there would be less room for abuse.

  6. #51

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSkyDriveBy View Post
    I hate what FP has done to existing queues built before its implementation. I hate the fact that standby lines for some attractions, like Splash, are always lengthy, with FP running out by early afternoon. And I hate the bottleneck of guests who malinger at the entrance, blocking pedestrian flow while waiting for their FP windows to open.

    I feel FP creates more problems than it solves. It should just go away.
    Most of these problems are due to the fact that Disney is juggling both a virtual queue and a physical queue at each attraction. There is a way for Disney to eliminate the physical queue altogether, though.

    If Disney were to ever implement some of the suggestions I mentioned above, problems, such as ticket unavailability and malingering guests, would be a thing of the past.

    I also would like to see Disney make the tickets, and the rest of the system, an integral part of the show (e.g., boarding passes for Star Tours flights; invitations to a swinging wake at The Haunted Mansion; tickets to tour Dr. Jones' excavation site; etc.).

    The FastPass system has the potential to work flawlessly with: shorter wait times; no stand-by option; a shorter return window that is enforced; better fictionalization; and, a greater number of interesting ways to occupy one's time in the vicinity of a particular attraction.

  7. #52

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    I also would like to see Disney make the tickets, and the rest of the system, an integral part of the show (e.g., boarding passes for Star Tours flights; invitations to a swinging wake at The Haunted Mansion; tickets to tour Dr. Jones' excavation site; etc.).
    That's a great idea!
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  8. #53

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    I think improving the FastPass system is quite simple, or at lest, should be approached more simply.

    FastPass should be a different way to line up, but not necessarily a ticket for priority seating. FastPass will, and does, cut down on the number of people in the Standby Line. But instead of rushing all your returning FastPassers into the ride and putting your other Guests on hold, alternate your loads. One party from FastPass, two from the Standby. Or something mathematically more feasible.

    I thing the biggest problem with FastPass is that both Guests and Disney think it should be a VIP ticket to get in line first, when what it really is, is a alternative way to wait in line. Long wait standing, or long wait doing something else. It's a misperception that FastPass is a legal way to cut in line or that it eliminates the need to wait. But your wait time is not significantly decreased in any way. The only thing that truly changes is the manner in which you wait.

    FastPass creates the same illusions that Credit Cards create. The illusion of free gain or instantaneous satisfaction. But in fact, your still paying for the product, your just changing the manner and timing in which you do it. Disney needs to change their preception and marketing of the FastPass to better suit its true function.



  9. #54

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Actually, I really like the FastPass system the way it is. I'm definitely for keeping it a "right," not a "privelage." I was out of the loop, DL wise, at the time of my first visit with the FP system, and it was a very pleasant surprise to discover I didn't have to pay extra for it.

    Also, I remember waiting in 2 hour lines for Splash Mountain in the Summer before FP was implimented.

    The one thing that I can think of is this:

    I'm assuming FastPasses are issued as soon as the park opens (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that). If this is the case, perhaps they could be started later in the day, since (from what I've read) the people who get there first thing in the morning avoid the long lines anyway. This way, FastPass for popular attractions wouldn't run out until later in the day, allowing those who arrive at the park later more chances to use the system. Just a theory for those who aren't morning people, like myself (I've never arrived at the park before Noon, but going in the off-season, I'm generally able to ride the rides I want to with minimal waits, anyway, so I'm not complaining )

    What I really would like to see is more Single Rider pass capability.


    Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I did catch this:


    I also would like to see Disney make the tickets, and the rest of the system, an integral part of the show (e.g., boarding passes for Star Tours flights; invitations to a swinging wake at The Haunted Mansion; tickets to tour Dr. Jones' excavation site; etc.).


    That would be really cool, Pragmatic Idealist. Once, I imagined a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory ride for which the FastPasses would be Golden Tickets.

  10. #55

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Warning Long Post
    The Jedi is right. You still wait when you get a FastPass. People calling for its abolishment rarely address that. Clearly though, there is a problem which should be addressed. Ridding the parks completely of FP just because the current implementation is to fault is a short-sighted 'fix.' The experience would not be better, though it could possibly be fair in a subjective sense.
    If one does look at a FP as a placeholder rather than a cut (as the post above has suggested), some valuable changes could be made.


    Idea one, least intrusive change; rather than letting in FP holders in chunks, they are alternated party by party. While there is still somewhat of a cutting aspect, at least stand-by waiters are not watching a group of riders pass the line without moving at all themselves.

    Two, More complicated/grief-inducing...(can be done with or without implementing #1); rather than restricting how many FastPasses one can hold at one time, restrict the usage in a different manner. This could be any number of the following:
    A) cap the number of FastPasses per day, thereby limiting any given individual's impact on standby times. The actual number would have to be determined based on rides per day and queue time avg. data that I don't have, but that Disney certainly does (I'd guess maybe somewhere between 5 and 10 would be likely). While this may seem to aggravate some, remember that DL has and does turn people away from the park to go to DCA entirely when it is at or near capacity. This cap is far less traumatic and would probably be less a hindrance than it seems at first glance.
    -or-
    B) FastPasses by topography; allow for FP to work in all given land's rides (that have the function) and expand the window to two hours BUT windows must be strictly enforced. Bold or large print "Times will be strictly enforced;" riders can't complain they were not warned. My hope with this would be to keep guests in the same area for a chunk of time before they move on to the next area. With this change I realize that other things may need to change as a result. The lands may have to be combined I suppose. It could breakdown as Tomorrowland, Fantasyland/Toontown, and Frontierland/CritterCountry (with Haunted Mansion Holiday included during winter to add NOS)
    [side note: I never realized how many FP attractions were in Tomorrowland]
    -or-
    C) FastPass can be used unlimited amount of times for a ride within a given window (45min for about 3 rides? Again the bold text indicating strict enforcement is key) but can only be used once per ride per day (yes you must re-queue). This one is tricky on a slow day, but my guess is if the line is already under 20min one wouldn't use FP. I also realize one may not want to ride 3 times in a row, but this would encourage more judicious use of the FP, which is the whole point. A riders certainly wouldn't have to ride more than once, but knowing you are potentially wasting more rides make a FP more valuable.

    With all the above suggestions the wait time between FastPasses may and likely should change depending on the situation. With the least changing suggestions I'd say the wait be lengthened to 3hrs and with the more drastic shifts shortened to 90min (no change if ride window is earlier than 90min).

    I will say finally that I like some of the changes above more than others but would rather see others critique which pieces are useful and which may be utter crap. Don't be shy! Don't be rude either. Go to town.
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  11. #56

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    JeffYardDog, what do you see as FastPass' flaws? I think sleepyjeff's idea of limits pased on ticket price nails the problem right on the head. The problem, as I have gathered, is a user base that visits semi to quite frequently and savy internet users. Instead of people waiting in lines they are out in the park collecting FastPasses running from attraction to attraction. The guest experience is hindered by the crowding.

    If FastPass was limited price ($10 = FastPass of choice) frequent visitors are placed into the lines. This is a huge portion of the Disneyland user base that would no longer be using loopholes and not stand in line.

    Vacationing guests aren't really affected as estimates place the average guest at experiencing 8 - 10 attractions a day. Vacationers could get a FastPass, with an enforced time window, and wait for its time window in the area, knowing everybody is limited.

    Now here's the best part: capacity. It seems everybody agrees that a proper FastPass: Stand Bay ratio is critical. With no enforcement on time windows, plus plenty in the know there is a lot of people showing up for FastPass usage, at the detriment to the Stand By line. Limiting acces could prevent FastPasses running out or issuing times many hours in advance. People won't let their time pass or just grab them as an "in case we get time after our window passes". As it stands FastPass has no value and that knowledge is used by those who know that. If FastPass were given a value its rules would be better followed and there would be less room for abuse.
    I have been very critical of the proposals here without offering an alternative.

    The fact is that despite everyone heres' frustration with fastpass is that any significant changes to fix it's alleged flaws would lead to more complex systems for Cast Members to implement and supervise and for guests to understand with Cast members having to explain things to them and deal with their frustrations. Both these would make for a poor guest experience overall. And implementing complex computerized systems and multiple-use fp's based upon careful monitoring (scans, etc.) would lead to a system with its own delays and fragility.

    For all its imperfections, the current system is relatively easy to manage and explain (absent the aggressive maximizing strategies documented on MiceChat) and Disney avoids implementing it in a too rigid fashion that would penalize guests for some things out of their control and for distractions from the 'schedule'. That doesn't ahppen all that often and isn't highly abused; if it were Disney could being a more strict enforcement without changing the official rules.

    All the creative proposals here are made by people who don't have to implement them, make them workable day-in-and-day out, train people to apply them, educate guests to use it, and deal with the satisfaction levels and frustrations that would result. It's easy to make these proposals when one doesn't have to deal with the practicalities of actually making them work.

    Disney has to do that andfor all their faults they know how difficult it is to organize people and how it will affect there experience at the parks. So thay have chosen to have a system that is relatively simple to manage even if it's far from perfect because the alternatives seem to have faults that exceed their advantages. Do you think they don't consider alternatives such as these themselves and end up rejecting them for good reasons ?

  12. #57

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffYardDog View Post
    Do you think they don't consider alternatives such as these themselves and end up rejecting them for good reasons ?
    No, Disney doesn't.

    Disney's people have never been able to ascertain a way to eliminate the stand-by queues, yet. And, I doubt that the company has even tried.

  13. #58

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by TomorrowlandTourist View Post
    I think one of the toughest challenges with FastPass is exactly what has been addressed, enforcing the return time of the FastPass. It has been stated that you can show up after your window of return, mainly because of any number of circumstances that may have slowed you down, for example a ride breaking down or being help up by a parade.

    Ideally, no one should be admitted after the time expires on their FastPass. Unfortunately, that would not yield friendly comments from those who show up ten minutes late only to be told their FastPasses are no longer valid. However, this must be done, as allowing others to show up late hinders the effectiveness of FastPass.
    It is a very touchy subject and not an easy one to address. Overseas the ending times actually do matter and are followed. This is easier to do without all of the AP holders and non APers who are able to attend 3 or more times a year. A tourist will follow the timelines even at DL because they have no reason to think that it doesnt matter. All of us however know that it does not matter, we tell our friends who tell there friends and so on and so on and you are left with the situation as it is today for DL. As was previously stated if DL starts enforcing the ending times there will be nothing but negative feedback spewed out at the poor souls working in city hall! I got to thinking maybe if you got held up by a ride breakdown you get a special pass that says you can use your fastpass after the ending time but Disney already passes out hand written passes to guests who are held up by a breakdown. Also, there would be no way to distribute them for people who got held up by a parade etc. logistically impossible. I dont think selling them as a premium upgrade would work either. The amount of guests to DL everyday dwarfs that of Universal Studios and it would be much harder to manage the system.

    I wish I had an answer but IMO there is not an easy "fix" to the problem. Hopefully someone who is getting paid large sums of money by Disney can come up with something. In the meantime those of us who have perfected the art of using fastpass for our fullest advantage will contnue to use it just the way it is. I still think that getting rid of it completely is the only way that it can be fixed.

  14. #59

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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa3467 View Post
    I suppose they could also time stamp them using a good ol' fashioned time clock, and enter the usage data later... It was just an idea I threw out as a possible means of data collection. As it is, you know what percentage of Guests with FastPasses return, but not when they return. Having that could be useful in determining how many people are abusing the system and returning late.

    Sorry, I still don't see your point. Could you please explain how Disney opting not to enforce their own "rule" and instructing it's employees to ignore the closing time on a fastpass becomes the "guests" (yeah right...) abusing the system. Because from the paying "guest" side of the equation it appears that if anyone has screwed up the fastpass system it's Disney itself.

    And how can you thrash on "guests" abusing the system and yet not be ticked off at MC? After all every single trick I know about and use to "abuse" the fastpass system I learned in a thread stuck to the top of this very forum.

    IMO - YMMV - FYIGM


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    Re: Improving the FastPass System

    Here's a question for the pros: About two months ago we were loaded onto Screamin' and before the train left the station the ride broke down so we were taken off and handed a fastpass from a CM. This was in the afternoon and the fastpass they gave me was from right after the park had opened earlier. As they needed more fastpasses for riders they simply took them from the red box by the stairs where they put FPs after they accept them. I asked about the dead times on the ticket and was told by the CM it didn't matter.

    Latter the same day it happened again,. Once again we were given used FPs from the red box. So how does a Lead/Management sanctioned practice like this fit into/affect FP planning?
    IMO - YMMV - FYIGM


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