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  1. #1951

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    It's definitely very old music. The music on the piano itself is E T - C U M - S P I R I T U O and you can hear what it sounds like if you follow the link: http://www.hauntedmansion.info/Groun...?imageorder=51

    Nope, it's not Grim Grinning Ghosts.

  2. #1952

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    I like that the song is bone chilling...like it fits perfectly in that haunted theme and seems like something a playful spook would play

  3. #1953

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    That song almost sounds like a church hymn I used to hear called "Abide With Me"
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  4. #1954

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    It was probably just a cool-looking piece of old sheet music that the Imagineers reproduced from a book. Probably some kind of Gregorian Chant or something. It does sound eerie, but I doubt if they ever dreamed of a day when it would be instantly available for scrutiny by Disney fans.

    Speaking of finding things in books, last year I mentioned to GRD that Marc Davis's inspiration for the magic circle in this concept painting ("The Witch of Walpurgis") could be found in a 1920's book by Émile Grillot de Givry, published under a confusing number of different names in English. My copy is called, Illustrated Anthology of Sorcery, Magic, and Alchemy.



    GRD got the book and did a few scans, and posted a couple of interesting blogs:
    http://ghostrelationsdept.blogspot.c...ay-part-1.html
    http://ghostrelationsdept.blogspot.c...ay-part-2.html

    They included this nice montage:


    I thought I'd sort of supplement those discussions with some further detail. Here's a fuller view of the painting that supplied most of the items in Marc's painting (and therefore in GRD's montage). It's "An Assembly of Witches" by Frans Franken (1581-1643). Sorry for the quality; scanning from a book and all that:



    That's on page 62. The "magic circle" in the Witch of Walpurgis painting appears on page 110:



    Much closer to the "Assembly of Witches" (pages 57 and 58) are these pictures, which undoubtedly gave Davis the idea of the two-pronged pitchfork in the Witch of Walpurgis painting:





    Witches flew around on pitchforks more commonly than on brooms, it seems. Notice the cat reading the book in one picture. The black cat was the witch's "familiar," a spirit-possessed critter that helped out with these rituals. That's why Marc's witch has got one. Lots of authentic stuff in that concept painting, mostly jettisoned for the actual "Sinister 11" portrait, probably because it was thought to be too obscure.

    Yeah, I discussed some of this about a thousand posts ago, but it's way more fun if you've got pictures. It's fun to look at the actual inspirations that the Imagineers drew upon.

    Edited to add: And don't overlook the hidden Mickey:

    Last edited by HBG2; 07-22-2007 at 02:53 PM. Reason: fixed link

  5. #1955

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    It's definitely very old music. The music on the piano itself is E T - C U M - S P I R I T U O and you can hear what it sounds like if you follow the link: http://www.hauntedmansion.info/Groun...?imageorder=51

    Nope, it's not Grim Grinning Ghosts.
    That reproduction is not entirely accurate, but it's pretty close. It's hard to reproduce chant accurately, especially with modern training because it's written in such a completely different way as to be almost incomprehensible. It seems like later chant, though, because the parts do look like harmony, though I could be wrong. Definitely not piano music, though. Plainchant would be a more accurate term than Gregorian chant, though.
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  6. #1956

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by BassBone View Post
    That music is very very very old-style notation. The type of music is called plainchant and would be sung at worship by choirs of monks in a Catholic cathedral. It actually appears to be later than plainchant on second examination, but with the same style notation. The reason I say it's later is because harmony is indicated and the earliest forms of church music were in strict unison. I would say it's probably a reproduction of something found in a hymn book from perhaps the thirteenth or fourteenth century.
    Quote Originally Posted by BassBone View Post
    That reproduction is not entirely accurate, but it's pretty close. It's hard to reproduce chant accurately, especially with modern training because it's written in such a completely different way as to be almost incomprehensible. It seems like later chant, though, because the parts do look like harmony, though I could be wrong. Definitely not piano music, though. Plainchant would be a more accurate term than Gregorian chant, though.
    Very interesting observations. You're probably right that it's liturgical choral music, as the phrase E T - C U M - S P I R I T U O occurs in the Latin Mass:

    Dominus vobiscum. E t - c u m - s p i r i t u o tuo.
    Sursum corda. Habemus ad Dominum.
    Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
    Dignum et iustum est.

    The Lord be with you. And with your spirit.
    Let our hearts be lifted high. We hold them before the Lord.
    Let us give thanks to the Lord our God. It is right and just.


    (Have to type carefully to get around the filter here)

    I don't suppose there could be an inside joke, with the Latin phrase, "and with spirit," on the ghostly piano?



    ****************break********************


    Then and Now.

    Here's a picture I found at the terrific blog, Gorillas Don't Blog, taken in 1963, just a few months after the HM show building had been constructed. http://gorillasdontblog.blogspot.com...june-1963.html
    Below it is a picture we took during the 50th DL anniversary.



    Last edited by HBG2; 07-20-2007 at 08:35 PM. Reason: making two posts only count as one, ha ha

  7. #1957

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    It's amazing what the Internet has done for Haunted Mansion fandom. Until the Net, everyone knew the HM was popular, but no one knew HOW popular. The 25th anniversary of the HM in 1994 was a relatively low-key affair compared with the 30th anniversary bash in 1999.

    Here are a couple of pictures from the 25th anniversary:



  8. #1958

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    Interesting photo comparison on the last page, though a more similar angle would be more helpful. It's cool to see how the trees have grown and really changed the atmosphere of the area--for the better, in my opinion, though they do make analyzing aerial photos for the sake of modeling nearly impossible.


  9. #1959

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    It's cool to see how the trees have grown and really changed the atmosphere of the area--for the better, in my opinion,
    I agree, and this is true throughout the park. If you could go back to DL's earlier years in a time machine and return, you'd likely be disappointed with how bare the place looks. For atmosphere, there is nothing like some big trees. God retains his title as the best Imagineer.

    ***********break***************


    Going back for a moment to the largely-forgotten HM 25th anniversary in '94, Don Bertino was there, and this is his description of the event:

    On a hot Tuesday, August 9, Disneyland celebrated the 25th Anniversary
    of the Haunted Mansion opening. The day started with Veteran Imagineers
    "X" Atencio, John Hench, Sam McKim, Bill Justice, as well as current
    Imagineers Dave Mumford, Russell Brower, and Archivist Dave Smith being
    escorted to chairs set up in front of the Mansion gates.

    The gates were closed and shrouded in spider webs and drapery. Dead
    leaves were scattered in front and several big oval signs declared the
    event. The Make-Believe-Brass was costumed in Mansion Host green butler
    garb and began to play some dirgefull tunes. An "Undertaker"-looking
    M.C. took the podium and proceeded thru some ghoulish pater with 2 cutsie
    Mansion Maids. The Undertaker introduced "X" Atencio, who talked
    briefly about designing and building the Mansion. The Undertaker then
    brought out Mickey in a snappy tux. Mickey and the Undertaker opened the
    locked gates and invited all to join them in a ride thru the Mansion.

    I sat with "X", Sam and John as they reminisced about the early days,
    the changes, the old stories. Moments of pure gold for me!
    http://stason.org/TULARC/entertainme...ersary-Di.html
    Last edited by HBG2; 07-21-2007 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Another post-doubling sleight-of-hand

  10. #1960

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    I agree, and this is true throughout the park. If you could go back to DL's earlier years in a time machine and return, you'd likely be disappointed with how bare the place looks. For atmosphere, there is nothing like some big trees.
    It's so true! In my perusals of old Disneyland photos, one of the biggest changes I've always noticed has not been in which rides are present, but in how big the trees are. Early ROA looked completely different from how it does now. The Jungle Cruise had an entirely different atmosphere. Areas like NOS felt a lot starker and...I dunno, controlled, I guess, originally. The growth of the older trees lends a sense of mystery and age and natural beauty.

    God retains his title as the best Imagineer.
    Amen!


  11. #1961

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    Several pages ago we had a brief discussion about the fact that the HM seemed to be slated for "Frontierland" in some old, early-to-mid 60's publicity shots.



    Well, here's another old release, from when they thought they were going to have the thing open in 1963 (!), and it shows that the HM was indeed thought to be part of Frontierland, but this was because, at the time, the future New Orleans Square was considered to be only a new addition to Frontierland and not a separate new land. Therefore, the HM was indeed going to be considered part of Frontierland, even if it was in NOS.



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  12. #1962

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Well, here's another old release, from when they thought they were going to have the thing open in 1963 (!), and it shows that the HM was indeed thought to be part of Frontierland, but this was because, at the time, the future New Orleans Square was considered to be only a new addition to Frontierland and not a separate new land. Therefore, the HM was indeed going to be considered part of Frontierland, even if it was in NOS.



    http://www.doombuggies.com/history6.htm
    So HM was considered in Frontierland.
    Interesting how Frontierland has been "downsized" in people's perceptions over time and NOS has had the distinction of being the principal "land" around ROA.

    Aside from the circle in the "square" it seems the NOS buildings were realized pretty much the way the illustration depicts it. Sometimes the concept and the manifestation y can be very different.


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  13. #1963

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    But HM is technically still in Frontierland as NOS is supposed to be a part of it. The evidence of this shows on the NOS/Frontierland station sign as it says Frontierland on it. Why does it not show Adventureland too?
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  14. #1964

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    I don't care what anyone says--I still say NOS is its own land! I really hate to push this thread one post closer to oblivion just so I can join in on this old argument...but I think NOS is thematically unique enough to really be a whole different land from Frontierland. It corresponds to a completely different era and location, with theming that feels totally different. Yes, if we view the original Disneyland as having four different symbolic lands (plus Main Street USA) that represent the American past, the American future, American fantasy, and adventure outside America, we'd have to put NOS into the first category. But I really do think that NOS deserves credit as its own land, despite the fact that it's clearly a daughter of Frontierland--or conjoined twin, as some would have it.


  15. #1965

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    Re: Long-forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect?

    Since there are these old references to the HM being in FtL, they are relevant grist for the mill in the NOS/FtL debate, and it is relevant to reference that debate in this thread, but I have only one thing to say about that debate: I never heard of it before coming here to MC. It has always been obvious to me, from the day it opened, that NOS was a distinct land. It is listed that way on the souvenir maps and guides that are given to guests, and always has been. If it were not for people digging up hidden or historical data and saying "technically" this and "technically" that, no Disneyland guest would ever guess that it was not a distinct and separate land.

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