Disneyland becoming average?

[Fantasmico!]

After reading soem of the threads about slipping standards, low pay, huge CM turnover, guests who wear obscene clothing etc. have me concerned that Disneyland, perhaps the other parks too, is in danger of becoming an average amusement park and ever closer to ceasing to be an above average theme park. What do you think?

[Mathius]

No, it's just the people who feel that they have some sort of entitlement to speak up about these things.

In all honesty tons of people complaining about these things probably wouldn't last a minute if given the chance to run these parks.

What I find some people love to do here is take some sort of issue and just analyze the hell out of it.

[animagusurreal]

I don't think DL is in imminent danger of becoming completely "average" by general theme park standards. They would have to do some serious work to completely irradicate the detailed theming left over from the past. Also, Lasseter gives me some hope for the future.

However, I do think that paying average (or below average) wages may lead to average (or below average) service to the guest. And smaller budgets for new attractions that only focus on "popular" movies may result in average (compared to the rest of the park) attractions.

Also, I think that there are those in charge of DL who really don't care whether the park is average, or below or above that, as long as the park keeps bringing in their $$$.

As to analyzing things, this is a discussion board. I think that's kind of what it's for .

[Wally]

Hi! I'm the new 's Advocate. I feel the need to point out that Disney does pay above average. Knott's and Six Flags pay their workers minimum wage. Disney pays around $1 more. Doesn't sound like much, unless you work for $7 an hour, and that extra buck is huge percentage difference.
Cheap attractions? Okay, a point might be had on the whole carni-rides at Paradise Pier and everyone's favorite attraction-punching bag, Pooh. However:

• 2004- Twilight Zone Tower of Terror. Not original, but a bonafide E-Ticket. Lot's of cash went into this.
• 2005- Buzz Lightyear Astroblasters. Not an E-Ticket, but a fun C ticket attraction. Shortcuts weren't that apparent.
• 2006- Monster's Inc. Okay, got me there. But it fixed Superstar Limo.
• 2007- Finding Nemo Sub Voyage- all reports are that this will be another E-Ticket, with a budget around $100 million. Al positively praises this thing every single article. That's 2 E-Tickets in 3 years (more in 6 years if you count Screamin', Soarin', and Grizzly)
• 2008- Toy Story/Midway Mania. The buzz seems to be that this will be a D-Ticket. 3D Tech combined with Buzz seems like a winner.

These things don't go cheap. Yeah, Disneyland had a sizable drought of quality attractions for awhile, and there have been some misteps. But the future looks promising.
Yeah, the CMs really should be paid more. But what they are paid is above the industry average, and the pay is slowly increasing as well.

[Aladdin]

Wally, You must be in HR, to be a devil's advocate

The only problem is with Maintaining, Closing, and paying
Salaries on the Cheap, even all the good they did, primarily
for the 50th, doesn't stack up to a hill 'o beans for all the
destruction and awful decisions made the previous 10 years.
And quite frankly some of those problems are nearly impossible
to correct, such as the entrance and layout of DCA, and then
all the other fixes which are, at this point nearly cost prohibitive.

Yeah, OF COURSE those things don't "go on the cheap", they
did that for over 10 years, and THAT is why they HAVE the
DCA Problem, the TL Problem, and the HR problems.

[Disneyland RR Guy]

Originally Posted by Wally

Hi! I'm the new 's Advocate. I feel the need to point out that Disney does pay above average. Knott's and Six Flags pay their workers minimum wage. Disney pays around $1 more. Doesn't sound like much, unless you work for $7 an hour, and that extra buck is huge percentage difference.
Cheap attractions? Okay, a point might be had on the whole carni-rides at Paradise Pier and everyone's favorite attraction-punching bag, Pooh. However:

• 2004- Twilight Zone Tower of Terror. Not original, but a bonafide E-Ticket. Lot's of cash went into this.
• 2005- Buzz Lightyear Astroblasters. Not an E-Ticket, but a fun C ticket attraction. Shortcuts weren't that apparent.
• 2006- Monster's Inc. Okay, got me there. But it fixed Superstar Limo.
• 2007- Finding Nemo Sub Voyage- all reports are that this will be another E-Ticket, with a budget around $100 million. Al positively praises this thing every single article. That's 2 E-Tickets in 3 years (more in 6 years if you count Screamin', Soarin', and Grizzly)
• 2008- Toy Story/Midway Mania. The buzz seems to be that this will be a D-Ticket. 3D Tech combined with Buzz seems like a winner.

These things don't go cheap. Yeah, Disneyland had a sizable drought of quality attractions for awhile, and there have been some misteps. But the future looks promising.
Yeah, the CMs really should be paid more. But what they are paid is above the industry average, and the pay is slowly increasing as well.

The real last E-ticket ride ever built at Disneyland was Indy back in 95.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Aladdin

Wally, You must be in HR, to be a devil's advocate

yeaaaaaahhhh....that's what I am

Originally Posted by Aladdin

The only problem is with Maintaining, Closing, and paying
Salaries on the Cheap, even all the good they did, primarily
for the 50th, doesn't stack up to a hill 'o beans for all the
destruction and awful decisions made the previous 10 years.
And quite frankly some of those problems are nearly impossible
to correct, such as the entrance and layout of DCA, and then
all the other fixes which are, at this point nearly cost prohibitive.

Yeah, OF COURSE those things don't "go on the cheap", they
did that for over 10 years, and THAT is why they HAVE the
DCA Problem, the TL Problem, and the HR problems.

The sad part is, it's probably going to take over 20 years to fix 10 years of mistakes. It is always so much harder to repair than to neglect and destroy.
DCA is going to be getting a ton of TLC. Not just with this Midway Mania, but if even half the stuff Al talks about comes to pass (parkwide Place Making, rebranding and renaming the park, elimination of the CALIFORNIA letters, animatronics on Grizzly, railroad, gold mining, Carland, blah blah blah) then alot of DCA's problems will be fixed.
Tomorrowland. The husk of Circlevision has been replaced by Buzz. The stupid paint scheme has been fixed. Tomorrowland Terrace has returned, kicking out Club Buzz and debuting the awesome Jedi Training Academy. The Subs are finally coming back later this year, and Space Mountain has been rebulit. This is progress. You can bet those folks at WDI are looking at the return of Rocket Jets and People Mover, it may be 10 or 20 years, but the land is on the mend.
The HR situation is a bit murkier because it is the one thing that has not shown true progress lately, but hope springs eternal. For if the situation gets bad enough to effect 'the bottom line' significantly for Disney, they will have no choice but to compensate their CMs more adequately.

[Imagineer1985]

Originally Posted by Fantasmico!

After reading soem of the threads about slipping standards, low pay, huge CM turnover, guests who wear obscene clothing etc. have me concerned that Disneyland, perhaps the other parks too, is in danger of becoming an average amusement park and ever closer to ceasing to be an above average theme park. What do you think?

No, Its kind of like Disney is like the Four Seasons, and the elite(AP's) are complaining that their blankets are askew, or that their carpet was not vacuumed. Of course it needs to be fixed and pointed out , they are no way close to the horrendous "Standards" Of SIx Flags (Motel 6), ,Knotts (Red Roof In), Universal( Marriot)

Most Disney Geek's will take the themed experiences of DCA over Six Flags. I love Six Flags rides but is appears to be run by a batch of monkeys. For instance How about instead of Characters during the Macarena have employees group at roller coasters. Grouping is the Disney term that prevents riots at the loading dock, this is where they assign you the row you will ride the ride on instead of being herded like cattle.

[Fantasmico!]

Maybe the question is will it lose its personality. disney is moving towards eliminating the themed CM costumes in each land in favor of polo shirts and khakis, the lowered morale and attitudes of overworked CM's as well as little details being overlooked (such as the switch to the generic DisneyParks) all add up to depersonalization. All the details lead to the "magic" experience. Take those away and what do you have left? Of course a large population won't care or notice, which is also sad.

[The International]

Originally Posted by Disneyland RR Guy

The real last E-ticket ride ever built at Disneyland was Indy back in 95.

What's wrong with that? Of course I'd like them to build rides as good as Indy every two years but that's unrealistic. DCA opened in 2001 with three E-tickets, which is why none opened at Disneyland during that time. 2004 saw ToT which is one of my favorite rides at the resort, if not number one. In 2005 for the 50th anniversary the park was in beautiful condition, the show in the Opera House was charming and well-done as were the exhibits in the foyer, and the fireworks show introduced is an e-ticket if ever there was one. The Subs are shaping up to be a very good ride and I think Midway Mania will be one too.

Really, the reason it seems like Disneyland is "becoming average" is because there's nothing to discuss on message boards except the bad things. If there was no complaining it would be a lot of threads called "What's YOUR favorite place to get a churro?" and "Disneyland is GREAT!" I mean, we have those threads already, but also the "I saw some trash that wasn't picked up in 2 minutes... Walt's Dream is ruined" threads as well.

Basically, it's easy to become very cynical very quickly when you spend a lot of time discussing the parks' shortcomings online. My suggestion is to go to the parks yourself and see if you really think they're "becoming average" or not.

Personally, I think that there are plenty of things that could be done better, but there's even a longer list of things I think are being handled very well by whoever's in charge. DL's no closer to being an "average" theme park than it was at any time in the past. Actually, that's a point I've been wanting to make. See this article about the inside of the original Matterhorn. If they opened a ride today with no inside theming people would be up in arms about the "end" of Disney magic or whatever. I'm saying it's easy to look at the past through rose-colored Mickey glasses, but sometimes it helps to look at the present and realize that everything's not horrible too.

[Disneyland Daddy]

Originally Posted by Fantasmico!

After reading soem of the threads about slipping standards, low pay, huge CM turnover, guests who wear obscene clothing etc. have me concerned that Disneyland, perhaps the other parks too, is in danger of becoming an average amusement park and ever closer to ceasing to be an above average theme park. What do you think?

I'm with you on the obscene clothing issue. I have seen some tshirts with rude phrases and gestures on them. They should not be allowed. Also, I've seen women spilling out of their clothing, etc.


There needs to be flexibility for comfort, but outward obscene and rude clothing should not be allowed in.

[Fantasmico!]

In the past there were instances of people having to turn their clothing inside out because of the phrases not being family friendly.

[sediment]

DL can't become "average" as long as the rest of the competing parks keep dropping their standards.

And for all who complain, I ask one question: how much did you pay that day to enter? More than $50? then sure, go complain that your visit was not wirth the $50 you paid to enter. Less than that? Well, the complaint should be about something bad enough to make your visit less than what you paid.
For my last visit, I paid $11 to park. The rest of the costs of entering were compliments of a job well done (by a relative to some charity organization). So I really can't complain that there were only two lines open at the M&F structure at 8AM when the cars were backed up 40 deep or so and that other lanes were not properly blocked off giving people reason hat the lanes were open only to have to merge into the other lanes, causing some unhappiness in some vehicles. And I can't think of any other problem I had that day that merits even a cyber-whine.

[Aladdin]

Originally Posted by The International

What's wrong with that? Of course I'd like them to build rides as good as Indy every two years but that's unrealistic. DCA opened in 2001 with three E-tickets, which is why none opened at Disneyland during that time. 2004 saw ToT which is one of my favorite rides at the resort, if not number one.

Really, the reason it seems like Disneyland is "becoming average" is because there's nothing to discuss on message boards except the bad things.

If there was no complaining it would be a lot of threads called "What's YOUR favorite place to get a churro?" and "Disneyland is GREAT!" I mean, we have those threads already, but also the "I saw some trash that wasn't picked up in 2 minutes... Walt's Dream is ruined" threads as well.

Personally, I think that there are plenty of things that could be done better, but there's even a longer list of things I think are being handled very well by whoever's in charge.

DL's no closer to being an "average" theme park than it was at any time in the past. Actually, that's a point I've been wanting to make. See this article about the inside of the original Matterhorn. If they opened a ride today with no inside theming people would be up in arms about the "end" of Disney magic or whatever. I'm saying it's easy to look at the past through rose-colored Mickey glasses, but sometimes it helps to look at the present and realize that everything's not horrible too.

Yeeeshhh! Where to begin with all THAT! (even edited)

Indy WAS the Last E-Ticket IN DL. THAT is WAY too Long for
a New E-Ticket in DL. BUT where is DL's Next new E-Ticket?

Thankfully the Subs are opening soon. And that will certainly help us
move on, at least a little, from TL'98. BUT in all reality, this is just an upgrade of and existing attraction that should have been updated
15 to 20 years ago. Space Mt thankfully was rebuilt and new effects
added, but that was because it was closed due the track being structurally deficient. So Both of those are really pre-existing attractions. A new Buzz
Lightyear (C or D ticket) added help improve things, too. But that STILL
means the last NEW E-Ticket was Indy.

Then you said DCA opened with 3 E Tickets ~ Oh, man, that is REALLY
Disputable. Soarin' Over California was really THE attraction at DCA upon
Opening. That I would say IS an E-Ticket, however the queue is lacking,
and a MUCH better queue had been imagineered. THAT was cut due to
"building DCA on the cheap". Grizzly River Rapids, does take you to a
mountain rapid, although MUCH too wet for me to love the ride. But even
this was cut short, and prospects appear to be good for adding additional
visuals on this ride, reluctantly, ok, give it E Ticket Status. Finally,
California Screamin' Ok, it's a nice coaster. BUT that's ALL it is, a coaster.
And if you want to stretch it, a steel coaster themed as a Wooden coaster, add some music, which was already done with Space Mountain
years ago, and there is NOTHING about this attraction that can compare
to the themeing of Walt's original Matterhorn. AT LEAST is HAD a Theme (even if it needed improvements inside) IT was Technologically SO far
advanced, they HAD INVENTED the Tubular Roller Coaster for it! And when
Walt wanted to add that something special at the end, that is now the
splash into the water. CA Screamin' is an attrocity. NOTHING on it is near
as revolutionary as what the Matterhorn was NEARLY 50 years ago! And
again, the theme for CA Screamin' is blasphemous to even be considered
for a Disney Park.There's no WAY this plain jane Coaster should have even been considered. SO there were NOT 3 e-ticket in DCA on Opening Day.

And YES! Absolutely, Paradise Pier BRINGS the level of Disney Entertainment
DOWN substantially, by bringing in off the shelf
rides, and with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING planned or infastructure
placed in that huge POND in the center of Paradise Pier, NOT
a SINGLE attraction was even planned for that water area!
The list goes on for how substandard paradise pier is, from the
lighting fixture that was accidently knocked over, setting a chain
reaction, to the awful set up the water is for any type of show,
to the Route 66 area which "honors" the tackiest features on
the sideroads of America. Oh, Paradise Pier did SUBSTANTIAL
Damage in Decreasing the respectability and Imagination of
it's OWN theme Park Business.

And ToT in DCA also got the cheap treatment too. It's just not as
good as the original in WDW.

[Aladdin]

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