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  1. #736

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    I wish that they would stick to the window so that people couldn't use them all at the end of the day. That is happening a lot currently and it makes it impossible for the system to give them out in the correct amounts.
    How do you know it's happening "a lot" currently? Do you have any evidence that a large number of guests are "saving up" their fastpasses like that?

    What you're also forgetting is that by not using their fastpass at the designated time, the line itself goes faster during the designated time. It's not like it can be used twice. I'd be willing to bet that for every person who uses their fastpass several hours after the stated time, there's another person who ends up not even returning to use it. There are also, I imagine, many people who truly believe that you can't use your fastpass if you miss your one-hour window, so they end up throwing the fastpass away or simply not using it.

    Even so, I don't think that many people ignore the return time. If anything, most people are like me and they use the fastpass as soon as they can. I think the headache cast members would encounter by having to turn guests away for expired fastpasses would be far greater than the relatively small amount of guests who exploit the fact that the window has no "true" end.

    I think they inherently understand that some people are going to return later than the one hour window. But they still print the window on there to encourage people to return on time. I strongly believe that 95% of guests return during that window. The other 5% have an incredibly small impact on wait times. I just can't recall seeing any more of a fastpass "rush" late at night any more than during the day, and I've been to DLR probably around 100 times in the past several years.

  2. #737

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoplemoverMatt View Post
    But where do you draw the line?

    That's the problem. If you draw the line anywhere, it's going to be unfair to someone. Maybe it's 1 person out of 1,000,000 who finds it unfair, but that could potentially ruin that 1 person's vacation.

    The "loophole" of an unenforced window is an unperfect solution, but it's really the best one out there. The worst problem that it creates is a backlog of FP'ers at primetime (6-8pm) hours, which can stall out the stand-by line. But, those stand-by people CHOSE to wait in that line during primetime hours. They knew what they were getting into. Perhaps they will make a different choice next time.
    The line should be drawn where the least number of people are negativly affected.

    It is true that people choose to get into a standby line in order to enjoy a Disneyland attraction, but is it not true that people who enter their ticket into a FP machine and aquire a FP ticket are knowingly bound by its rules?

    The fat that it creates a backlog is a huge crowd management issue. Why should the many many people stuck in the standard line be "forced to make a different choice next time" and have their evening affected so that a few people enjoying a perk system can abuse the system? That logic is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by simba View Post
    How do you know it's happening "a lot" currently? Do you have any evidence that a large number of guests are "saving up" their fastpasses like that?

    What you're also forgetting is that by not using their fastpass at the designated time, the line itself goes faster during the designated time. It's not like it can be used twice. I'd be willing to bet that for every person who uses their fastpass several hours after the stated time, there's another person who ends up not even returning to use it. There are also, I imagine, many people who truly believe that you can't use your fastpass if you miss your one-hour window, so they end up throwing the fastpass away or simply not using it.

    Even so, I don't think that many people ignore the return time. If anything, most people are like me and they use the fastpass as soon as they can. I think the headache cast members would encounter by having to turn guests away for expired fastpasses would be far greater than the relatively small amount of guests who exploit the fact that the window has no "true" end.

    I think they inherently understand that some people are going to return later than the one hour window. But they still print the window on there to encourage people to return on time. I strongly believe that 95% of guests return during that window. The other 5% have an incredibly small impact on wait times. I just can't recall seeing any more of a fastpass "rush" late at night any more than during the day, and I've been to DLR probably around 100 times in the past several years.
    I have seen and heard many people on here say that they have and will use this to their advantage. Sure, it is not a perfect cross section but it is a data set none the less. Also, it is true that many people abandon their tickets, but I have seen people pick "expired" FP tickets off machines for use later. This happens... Believe me.

  3. #738

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    I have seen and heard many people on here say that they have and will use this to their advantage. Sure, it is not a perfect cross section but it is a data set none the less. Also, it is true that many people abandon their tickets, but I have seen people pick "expired" FP tickets off machines for use later. This happens... Believe me.
    No, I know it happens, but people on here are hardly a typical cross section of the "average Disney guest." Some people around here may talk and act like every Disney park guest is as savvy as we all are, but they're not. You're talking about a fraction of a fraction who might occasionally exploit a fastpass or two in this manner. I honestly don't think it has any significantly measurable wait time impact. You might see a couple dozen people do this towards the end of park hours. Even 50 people doing this will only increase a typical FP attraction's wait time by less than 5 minutes. Compared to the percentage of people who are using their fastpasses ASAP, it's trivial and it only trivially affects wait times.

  4. #739

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    The fat that it creates a backlog is a huge crowd management issue. Why should the many many people stuck in the standard line be "forced to make a different choice next time" and have their evening affected so that a few people enjoying a perk system can abuse the system? That logic is flawed.
    My logic is fine. Your assessment is flawed. This isn't many many people in the stand-by line (please call it by its proper name) vs. a few people enjoying a perk system. ANYONE can get these FP tickets without spending one nickel for the opportunity outside of admission. The playing field is perfectly level down to the simple matter of making a choice. All choices have consequences, both positive and negative. If an individual doesn't like the consequences of choosing to wait in stand-by instead of getting a FP, then perhaps they will make a different choice next time. Pretty simple stuff there.

    And, as the above poster rightly pointed out, there really isn't anything more than a trivial wait time impact. It's much more perception than reality. The perception of watching other people move while your line isn't moving that fast. Same perception happens in traffic with carpool lanes. Those who're a little peeved that cars can speed by them in a carpool lane while they're stuck in traffic will perhaps make a different choice next time.

    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

  5. #740

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoplemoverMatt View Post
    My logic is fine. Your assessment is flawed. This isn't many many people in the stand-by line (please call it by its proper name) vs. a few people enjoying a perk system. ANYONE can get these FP tickets without spending one nickel for the opportunity outside of admission. The playing field is perfectly level down to the simple matter of making a choice. All choices have consequences, both positive and negative. If an individual doesn't like the consequences of choosing to wait in stand-by instead of getting a FP, then perhaps they will make a different choice next time. Pretty simple stuff there.

    And, as the above poster rightly pointed out, there really isn't anything more than a trivial wait time impact. It's much more perception than reality. The perception of watching other people move while your line isn't moving that fast. Same perception happens in traffic with carpool lanes. Those who're a little peeved that cars can speed by them in a carpool lane while they're stuck in traffic will perhaps make a different choice next time.
    The system is not limited by who can use it, but how many. That makes it a limited ssystem. Not everyone can get a FP at any time so there is not always the choice. If you can't choose to get a FP then you are forced into the standby line meaning you cannot just make a different chance next time.

    Also, how is a wait time trivial when it is the thing that makes or breaks the day of a tourist who only has one day at the park. That is not trivial at all, expecially when as I stated, the choice is not always there.

    As for perception, we all know that when excess FP people fill the ride, there is more than a perception that the line moves slow. It actually does move slow.

  6. #741

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    The system is not limited by who can use it, but how many. That makes it a limited ssystem. Not everyone can get a FP at any time so there is not always the choice. If you can't choose to get a FP then you are forced into the standby line meaning you cannot just make a different chance next time.

    Also, how is a wait time trivial when it is the thing that makes or breaks the day of a tourist who only has one day at the park. That is not trivial at all, expecially when as I stated, the choice is not always there.

    As for perception, we all know that when excess FP people fill the ride, there is more than a perception that the line moves slow. It actually does move slow.
    In all fairness, if you only have a day to spend at the resort, then it's best that you prioritize the "must do's" on your visit. You won't get everything done in one day and no amount of fast passers in front of you will do anything to change that. Do fast passes impact the wait times? Sure, to an extent. But, honestly, the extent is minimal, for the most part (especially fast paced lines *i.e. Splash Mountain, Space Mountain*).

    Rarely have I seen an instance of "excess FP people". Now, I don't live in the park, but I've been 3-4 times in the last 6 years (every single time during the peak months of the year *June-August) and I've never sen a negative impact from fast passes. In fact, lines were actually SLOWER before FP (in my experience). I waited in line for Space Mountain for 3 hours and 15 minutes the first time I ever rode it (1980 for the 25th anniversary). I didn't ride it again until 1990 in April. After that FP were the norm and since I've never waited longer than 45 minutes to ride it and even then it was PACKED.

    JMHO

  7. #742

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by disneyrand1 View Post
    In all fairness, if you only have a day to spend at the resort, then it's best that you prioritize the "must do's" on your visit. You won't get everything done in one day and no amount of fast passers in front of you will do anything to change that. Do fast passes impact the wait times? Sure, to an extent. But, honestly, the extent is minimal, for the most part (especially fast paced lines *i.e. Splash Mountain, Space Mountain*).

    Rarely have I seen an instance of "excess FP people". Now, I don't live in the park, but I've been 3-4 times in the last 6 years (every single time during the peak months of the year *June-August) and I've never sen a negative impact from fast passes. In fact, lines were actually SLOWER before FP (in my experience). I waited in line for Space Mountain for 3 hours and 15 minutes the first time I ever rode it (1980 for the 25th anniversary). I didn't ride it again until 1990 in April. After that FP were the norm and since I've never waited longer than 45 minutes to ride it and even then it was PACKED.

    JMHO
    The fact that lines would have gone slower before FP makes no sense. It is simple logic that tells us that if you add a second line without upping the capacity of a ride, your going to wait longer. There were obviously other factors that affected your wait times.

    The issue I am addressing is not that one day visitors need to prioritize, but that if they are made to wait longer for each ride, their experience is degraded regardless.

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TrevorD
    I wish that they would stick to the window so that people couldn't use them all at the end of the day. That is happening a lot currently and it makes it impossible for the system to give them out in the correct amounts.

    How do you know it's happening "a lot" currently? Do you have any evidence that a large number of guests are "saving up" their fastpasses like that?
    ..ok here is the thing i have seen people who take the fast pass, then don't use between the times specified, but wait for hours after to use it. it's not a crime to use it hours after the time on the ticket, as they still REDEEM ,becuase basicly you are holding your turn in line. there is nothing wrong with saving up all your fast passe's to use at a later time.

  9. #744

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    trevor d mentioned above that the system by who can use them but by how many in a period of time.. BUT that is why they have the time specified and the time that you can get another, they want to space the ticket giving out--but still even so people do save them up at the end of the day and use them.. personaly that is a great idea i might have to try that!

  10. #745

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by love♥dca View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TrevorD
    I wish that they would stick to the window so that people couldn't use them all at the end of the day. That is happening a lot currently and it makes it impossible for the system to give them out in the correct amounts.



    ..ok here is the thing i have seen people who take the fast pass, then don't use between the times specified, but wait for hours after to use it. it's not a crime to use it hours after the time on the ticket, as they still REDEEM ,becuase basicly you are holding your turn in line. there is nothing wrong with saving up all your fast passe's to use at a later time.
    Quote Originally Posted by love♥dca View Post
    trevor d mentioned above that the system by who can use them but by how many in a period of time.. BUT that is why they have the time specified and the time that you can get another, they want to space the ticket giving out--but still even so people do save them up at the end of the day and use them.. personaly that is a great idea i might have to try that!

    Again, the problem is that the system limits the number of tickets it gives out for each return time in an attempt to limit the number of people able to return at a specific time. If people can just save them up, the system cannot keep track of the windows properly and you end up with luls and rushes at the FP line. The FP line suffers because it becomes abnormally long at busy times and you end up waiting longer for "cheaters". Meanwhile, the standby line suffers because more Fastpassers need to be accomodated at peak hours.

    Sure, Disney doesn't enforce it but I think that they should (or just remove the system).

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    The fact that lines would have gone slower before FP makes no sense. It is simple logic that tells us that if you add a second line without upping the capacity of a ride, your going to wait longer. There were obviously other factors that affected your wait times.
    I'm not really interested in if it makes sense to you, or not. disneyrand1 speaks facts when much longer wait times in the past, before FastPass, existed compared to now. Again, TrevorD, your assessment & logic is flawed. FastPass does not simply add a second line without upping capacity. FastPass split what was known as the ride's queue into two queues - FastPass & Stand-By. FP split the queue, and split the people going into the queues, making stand-by shorter & faster than the ride queue everyone used to get stuck in. The other people who chose FP instead of the wait in stand-by hang out elsewhere, and then enter the ride through the FP queue. Both wait times become shorter, and those horrible 2-3 hour *average* (not just on holidays) wait times became a thing of the past.

    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoplemoverMatt View Post
    I'm not really interested in if it makes sense to you, or not. disneyrand1 speaks facts when much longer wait times in the past, before FastPass, existed compared to now. Again, TrevorD, your assessment & logic is flawed. FastPass does not simply add a second line without upping capacity. FastPass split what was known as the ride's queue into two queues - FastPass & Stand-By. FP split the queue, and split the people going into the queues, making stand-by shorter & faster than the ride queue everyone used to get stuck in. The other people who chose FP instead of the wait in stand-by hang out elsewhere, and then enter the ride through the FP queue. Both wait times become shorter, and those horrible 2-3 hour *average* (not just on holidays) wait times became a thing of the past.
    Whoever was trying to explain that earlier did a bad job, and you really need to consider a more people friendly approach to your posts.

    In any case, the fact that everybody can return at the same time due to the unenforced return windows does infact inpact the wait times of every guest regardless of waitimes in the past when the peoplemover still ran and the skyway offered views of Fantasyland. When considered in the context of the point I was trying to make, if everyone had to stick to their window, the system would be more efficient, more managable, and both lines would go faster at peak times because there would be no influx of people that the mergepoint CM has to get onto the ride. It is pretty easy to see that spreading the people out over the day would lessen the average effect. That is the point I'm trying to make regardless of how one out of context post can be made to sound.

    Even then, the fact that you have to wait hours for a window to open doesn't exactly mean your wait time is shorter, even if you can go grab a slice of pizza while you wait. It just makes that wait more managable/enjoyable.


    At the very basis though, the rides did not see any increase in capacity (and if they did, that counts as an external factor) so from the time you make the concious decision to ride an attraction, you really are not getting on any faster. Your wait method has been chopped and screwed with more lines to choose from and return windows to mess with but on average you won't get on that ride any faster. Unless that is, you manage to get good with the system which will in turn make someone else's wait longer as a result. There are so many seats on each Rocket, Elephant or Pirate Ship. Bringing this back to the topic I was discussing, sure holding a FP ticket might make your wait time more enjoyable, but mathmatically it is always at someone else's expense and you still end up waiting.

    Bringing it even more into focus, the point about the return windows also still stands. Strongly I might add.
    Last edited by Trevor; 05-12-2010 at 01:27 AM.

  13. #748

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Your point isn't invalid, Trevor, I just think you're grossly overestimating the number of people (and therefore the impact of said people) who decide to save their fastpasses for the end of the day. I firmly believe that the number of people is trivial.

    Yes, you occasionally see a mad dash of people in the fastpass line, but honestly, I think it's as much coincidence as anything else. When people get out of the Aladdin show, for example - that has a far, far greater impact on the line than any sort of FP system abuse. Same goes for parades when they finish, etc.

    The reason they put a window on the FP ticket is because the vast majority of park guests obey it. I personally don't enjoy standby lines that are longer than 15-20 minutes. I know the "loophole" that you can use your fastpass later in the day, beyond your "window." I have taken advantage of it on occasion when something comes up and I can't ride an attraction during my window, but honestly, I want to use my fastpass as quickly as I can. I'm not sure what perks there are to waiting until park closing to use your fastpass. During the busy season, the middle of the day is AWFUL in terms of lines even on smaller attractions.... that's the time when you need a fastpass most, and when you'd truly want to use it. At the end of the day, many attractions have virtually no wait - why would you save your fastpass for a time when the line for Big Thunder, for example, is under 10 minutes like it almost always is late at night.

    Again, I've pointed out that yes, people do "abuse" the system, but in the overall scheme of things, it's like one droplet in a large glass. The vehicle capacity on fastpass attractions absorbs a large amount of people into a short wait time. Even a mob of 100 people can be processed in five minutes on most e-tickets. When a standby line is 60 minutes, that's trivial. I think that while there are some people who purposely "hoard" their fastpasses until the end of the day, the number of those actually doing it are small and are completely insignificant.

    Like I said, I'm going from observation. I've been an AP holder for 5 years, and I'm in SoCal for usually over one month total per year, usually visiting DLR 20-25 times per year. I haven't seen any sort of preposterous fastpass activity late in the day.

    I also think that if it were a problem, Disney could easily compensate for this by reducing the number of fastpasses distributed for the late night hours. I get the sense that the fastpass system's return times are distributed unevenly - more fastpasses are issued for the windows where the line is known to be shorter. If too many people were showing up at the end of the day with fastpasses that were already expired, they'd make adjustments to this distribution.

    And finally, they can't just remove the return window altogether, because then everyone would take advantage of a loophole that only a small percentage are taking advantage of right now. As is, the fastpass system is the only reason I get to ride the "big" attractions more often. When I first went to WDW, before fastpass existed, I had to wait over 2 hours for splash mountain. Now, I can grab a fastpass and ride it when I want.

  14. #749

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    And from my limited experiance I have seen tonnes of people do it. Last summer on my trip when I rode BTMRR I was forced to wait 2 minutes for my window to open up and a group of 6 all walked on with FP from that morning. A group of two did it on Soarin' on another day in the few moments I waited to get into the FP line as well. I guess I can't help but think that if I noticed it happening on the few times I used FP, it must be happening fairly regularily.

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    And from my limited experiance I have seen tonnes of people do it. Last summer on my trip when I rode BTMRR I was forced to wait 2 minutes for my window to open up and a group of 6 all walked on with FP from that morning. A group of two did it on Soarin' on another day in the few moments I waited to get into the FP line as well. I guess I can't help but think that if I noticed it happening on the few times I used FP, it must be happening fairly regularily.
    This was at the end of the day?

    How did you know the fastpasses were from the morning?

    Now, if you've only seen these two incidents, then your sample size is very small. It's quite possible that you just happened to be in the right place at the right time to catch these two small groups doing this activity. It's awfully difficult to assume that this practice is so regular that it affects wait times in any sort of meaningful way, or that it's widespread, simply based on seeing two groups of people do it - one at each park.

    Sometimes we don't give Disney enough credit. I guarantee if they were observing widespread abuse of the fastpass system such that it was messing up wait times, they'd make adjustments as necessary. I have the distinct belief that they build in a certain amount of stastical knowledge - and accordingly adjust the fastpass allotment based on time of day with this knowledge taken into account.

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