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  1. #751

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by simba
    And finally, they can't just remove the return window altogether, because then everyone would take advantage of a loophole that only a small percentage are taking advantage of right now. As is, the fastpass system is the only reason I get to ride the "big" attractions more often. When I first went to WDW, before fastpass existed, I had to wait over 2 hours for splash mountain. Now, I can grab a fastpass and ride it when I want.
    This is really the bottom line from where I stand with FP. Yes, there is a bit of a loophole, and it's there for several good reasons. A lot of this kind of discussion flies around the realm of the vague theoretical. I prefer to live in the real world, and in the real world, the effect of the loophole is so trivial that it's not even really worth discussing beyond its mere existence.

    Yes, it happens. Yes, some do abuse it. But no, it's not currently a problem beyond its existence. I can see a potential for the loophole to become a problem, but it's not a problem today, nor do I ever see it actually becoming one given how few people will ever actually know about this loophole without serendipitiously becoming aware of it. This loophole will probably never be a problem, but there would be several HUGE problems should it ever go away. If you look at the issue from the park's perspective, the park will choose the least problematic option every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    There are so many seats on each Rocket, Elephant or Pirate Ship. Bringing this back to the topic I was discussing, sure holding a FP ticket might make your wait time more enjoyable, but mathmatically it is always at someone else's expense and you still end up waiting.
    That's the zero-sum myth that's been debunked so many times that it's really not worth repeating after it's been repeated eleventy-billion times. Holding a FP ticket isn't at someone else's expense any more than holding a restaurant reservation is at someone else's expense. Are restaurant reservations evil? No. FastPass is a ride reservation system. All guests can easily be aware of its existence, and how it works simply by reading their park map.

    For about 99.5% of the concept, there's no inside baseball about it, unless you consider actually reading the park map & reading the FP ticket "inside baseball". Instead of waiting in line, grab a ticket & come back after the first time printed on the ticket. That's one less person in line then, and one happier person whose in-queue wait time is drastically shorter when the printed time comes. When the ticket is obtained, someone in the stand-by line waits less because there's one less person in line then. When the FP ticket is redeemed, the FP holder waits less in the queue because they've already waited far longer than anyone in the queue, but not in the queue. There's no zero-sum about the concept at all. It all balances out during the course of the day.

    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

  2. #752

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    I'll just add one more thing to this already dead horse: I'll bet there are as many people purposely "saving up" their fastpass for a later time as there are people who simply never make it back to use their fastpass, decide to simply leave before their fastpass is ready, or simply assume that they can't use their fastpass any more because the time has passed and throw it away. This helps neutralize some of the (likely) extremely minor impact on wait times.

    And I'm still trying to figure out what the benefit is of purposely saving your fastpass for later. You want to use it as soon as you can, when the park is hot and crowded - not save it for later at night when lines on several attractions are walk on or when you're tired and want to leave or when you're waiting for Fantasmic, the Fireworks, or now WoC. It simply makes more sense to use it as soon as you possibly can.

    When there are 3,000 people in line for an attraction, an extra 20 people makes absolutely zero difference - that's basically a single vehicle load on Indy, or a single elevator on ToT. The only attractions that have fastpass in the first place are mostly the high volume attractions - not ones like Dumbo that can be affected by 40 people showing up at once.

    The way they currently enforce FPs is the best method. If they started enforcing the 1 hour window strictly, there would be so many angry guests making excuses to cast members that the CMs would go nuts. Not to mention that casual guests would get hammered the worst on this by underestimating how long things take and then not making it back for their return time. Savvy veterans would know how much they can accomplish before their return window without getting stuck in a standby queue or at a restaurant and missing their time. But an average guest would make mistakes and be hurt.

    The only alternative to strict enforcement would be to remove the window altogether or remove fastpass altogether, both of which have significantly worse negatives than the current method. I adore fastpass, and it's a luxury I don't like to live without. I don't want to stand in line for 2+ hours.

    I just don't see any possible alternative to the way they do it now, nor do I see there being any significant problems arising from the way they enforce it. Every alternative I can think of comes with much bigger caveats. The pros of the current system simply outweigh the cons by a huge margin - moreso than with any other possible free-of-charge and available-to-all system.

  3. #753

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    but u know if john doe has fp for indy @ 4pm and doesn't show up to use it till 6pm, they aren't going to turn him away they will still accept it and reedem it

  4. #754

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by simba View Post
    This was at the end of the day?

    How did you know the fastpasses were from the morning?

    Now, if you've only seen these two incidents, then your sample size is very small. It's quite possible that you just happened to be in the right place at the right time to catch these two small groups doing this activity. It's awfully difficult to assume that this practice is so regular that it affects wait times in any sort of meaningful way, or that it's widespread, simply based on seeing two groups of people do it - one at each park.

    Sometimes we don't give Disney enough credit. I guarantee if they were observing widespread abuse of the fastpass system such that it was messing up wait times, they'd make adjustments as necessary. I have the distinct belief that they build in a certain amount of stastical knowledge - and accordingly adjust the fastpass allotment based on time of day with this knowledge taken into account.
    I was sitting there by the FP queue entrance waiting to go in (the CM's hold you there until the clock says your time and had a clear look at everyone and their tickets. The CM was setting them on a garbage can right next to me. (Yes, grabbing them came to mind). My sample size might be small, but it is so true that data can be whatever you want isnt it. I figure that because I have only been able to see people hand in FP's in the last three hours of park operation that the fact it happened more than once means it happens regularily. I have no reason to believe that my assumptions are any more radical than yours.

    The one issue they might have with changing the system now is that suddenly denying someone who has held a ticket all day would make them madder than is worth it to them.

    I will for the record state that on the onset of this argument I didn't even actually state that the issue was super widespread. I just don't think that those who do it should be able to. I do see how making it about a widespread issue and then saying its not would make your jobs arguing easier though.

  5. #755

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    The one issue they might have with changing the system now is that suddenly denying someone who has held a ticket all day would make them madder than is worth it to them.
    Bingo. That's exactly the reason why this "loophole" isn't a perfect solution, but basically the best option available. Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.

    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

  6. #756

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoplemoverMatt View Post
    Bingo. That's exactly the reason why this "loophole" isn't a perfect solution, but basically the best option available. Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.
    However, biting the bullet will sting at first like ripping off a bandaid but it will be worth it (IMO. Besides, everyone seems to think that the number of people abusing is small so why not? lol

    If people are accepting pixar now, FP return times won't be a big deal.

  7. #757

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    However, biting the bullet will sting at first like ripping off a bandaid but it will be worth it (IMO. Besides, everyone seems to think that the number of people abusing is small so why not? lol
    Because it's not an issue of people getting used to it. It's the issue of the casual guest who gets bit by the strict enforcement.

    Say someone underestimates how long it will take to eat at a restaurant or the wait time for a ride says 10 minutes but it's actually 20. When they try to use their fastpass ("Sorry we got held up on another ride, but can we still use this, it's only 5 minutes past the time"), and they get denied, then you have an unhappy guest. The small number of abusers far outweighs the negative impact on a person's day.

    This makes things easy on CMs and prevents frustrated guests. What if a person's watch is 5 minutes slow? Does the CM give them a break? What about when the people behind those people hear that they got a 5 minute leeway because their watch was slow? So what's the official real cutoff? 6 minutes? 10 minutes? How long does the grace period last? You can't cut a person off who's 1 minute late, because of a ton of different reasons. What about when people get stuck on the wrong side of the parade route during a parade? It can take 10+ minutes to navigate around that thing. There are far too many issues with strict enforcement of the cutoff time.

    I'm not sure there's even a legitimate debate to be had over this issue. The policy they have now (list a cutoff time but don't enforce it) is by far the least problematic way to do it. Far, far too many issues with a cold, hard cutoff, and far worse scenario if they simply remove fastpass altogether.

  8. #758

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by simba View Post
    Because it's not an issue of people getting used to it. It's the issue of the casual guest who gets bit by the strict enforcement.

    Say someone underestimates how long it will take to eat at a restaurant or the wait time for a ride says 10 minutes but it's actually 20. When they try to use their fastpass ("Sorry we got held up on another ride, but can we still use this, it's only 5 minutes past the time"), and they get denied, then you have an unhappy guest. The small number of abusers far outweighs the negative impact on a person's day.

    This makes things easy on CMs and prevents frustrated guests. What if a person's watch is 5 minutes slow? Does the CM give them a break? What about when the people behind those people hear that they got a 5 minute leeway because their watch was slow? So what's the official real cutoff? 6 minutes? 10 minutes? How long does the grace period last? You can't cut a person off who's 1 minute late, because of a ton of different reasons. What about when people get stuck on the wrong side of the parade route during a parade? It can take 10+ minutes to navigate around that thing. There are far too many issues with strict enforcement of the cutoff time.

    I'm not sure there's even a legitimate debate to be had over this issue. The policy they have now (list a cutoff time but don't enforce it) is by far the least problematic way to do it. Far, far too many issues with a cold, hard cutoff, and far worse scenario if they simply remove fastpass altogether.
    Calling it a cold harsh cuttoff sounds bad.. Lets call it "the rules as set out by the company in order to access dirastically shorter lines. Wow... Better already.

    I think that a 10 min grace period would be just fine and the only people who would whine are the ones who are currently taking full advantage of the fact there is no cut-off. Parades, Fireworks and everything else at the resort starts whether your there or not, and priority seating has a cut off time. It is simply life that states that -within reason- if you miss your time, you miss out. Like I said, within reason would be a 5 or 10 minute cut-off. No more than that.

  9. #759

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    I like the policy now so when I go (which is once every few years) I can collect them throughout the day and use them during the peak period. I end up not being able to use them all, so I look for a family with small kids and give the rest away. I get to skip the lines on the E-tickets, and do a good deed for the day.

  10. #760

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by bstone76 View Post
    I like the policy now so when I go (which is once every few years) I can collect them throughout the day and use them during the peak period. I end up not being able to use them all, so I look for a family with small kids and give the rest away. I get to skip the lines on the E-tickets, and do a good deed for the day.
    At the expense of the people waiting in the standbye line.

  11. #761

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    At the expense of the people waiting in the standbye line.
    Yep. they choose to stand in the stand-by line. Anyone can get a fastpass, but for whatever reason people don't. Their loss in my gain.

  12. #762

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    FWIW, DLR, WDW and Tokyo Disney (TDR) all follow the same policy of not enforcing the end of the one hour FP window. DLR Paris did not up through 2007 when I was there. Further they had 30 minute FP windows - which they did strictly enforce. I have not been to HK Disney and do not know what they do there.

    I do agree with Simba that enforcing the windows will alienate some guests. At a place like DLR it can be hard to control your return time. When you throw in the previously mentioned parade disruptions to rides going down throughout the day, getting stuck on rides that are down, rides whose wait times are underestimated so you cannot time when you get off, not knowing how long it will take for dining and that taking extra time, people who have conflicting reservations (maybe for dining, a tour or Fantasmic dessert, etc.), conflicting FP window with previous plan to see a show or parade at a particular time, and last but not least touring with small children who have urgent needs, etc. These all can complicate things.

    Further, when you get your FP you cannot choose the window. It is not like a dining reservation where you call up the restaurant and say you want a table at 6PM. It is more like calling them up, waiting on hold for 10 minutes, and then having them tell you the next reservation is for 2PM when you want 6PM. Then you need to either take 2PM or keep calling back (with a 10 minute hold each time) until the reservation slot is your desired 6PM time.

    When you are moving around the park with kids and you go to get your Space Mtn FP at 10AM and the window is 2-3PM, that might be right in the middle of nap time for one of the kids.

    The idea of strict FP enforcement has some merit, but would work much better and with less guest alienation if:

    1. Guests could choose their own FP windows

    2. Guests could get all FPs from a central location without having to walk around to each attraction to see the FP window before deciding to get the FP (AK at WDW has been experimenting with this I have heard)

  13. #763

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    ^But the program is optional and the return times are clearly posted before you get your ticket, so if your using the system, you should be willing to agree to the terms of the agreement, expecially since you are very informed beforehand.

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    So has anyone considered the LACK of wait in the stand by line by those that do not choose/forgot to use their pass in the posted time window?

    All I really hear in argument against not using it in the window is it costs others time in the stand by line later. What about the time it doesn't cost riders during the window?

    I typically use my pass within the window. Sometimes with trying to entertain kids, get everyone fed, yadda, yadda, yadda it doesn't work out that way. I don't begrudge people in the fast pass line when I'm in stand-by regardless of WHEN their ticket says to return. I think the whole issue is petty really. The majority of people that use it are using it properly. The whine-fest about return times seems to be a little over the top to me, but whatever.

  15. #765

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Here is what I have always wanted them to do -- just let you hold more than ONE fast pass for all of the attractions. Now, you shouldn't be able to hold multiple passes for the same attraction per ticket, but if I could show up in the morning ahead of my family and just get fast passes for all of the big attractions then we could easily ride everything we wanted and still see the other stuff.

    It would be a service that I believe we would even pay for if it provided enough value.

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