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  1. #781

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Again.. Far to tied up with my use of the word "entitlement". I said "Yes, it is slightly different, but that in no way means that you should be entitled to return whenever you want" meaning that just because you cannot see the return time of each ride no matter where you are, that shouldn't mean the inconvenience of not knowing should allow you to return whenever you wish. Subsequently, I added that the system is a perk, or bonus, not something you have to use, so its not like not always knowing every ride's return time makes it an unfair one. Feel free to use adjectives such as "allowed", or "free to" in place of "entitled" in order to calm your fixation.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I think you are missing the real "agreement"

    There is some stated window on the fastpass, yes, but for as long as I can recall (half dozen visits in 8 years or so -- since having kids) the policy of the resort has been to accept fastpasses after the window, and even many hours after the window. I have never had one refused.

    That is the REAL agreement, because that is what they have been practicing for years. That information and more is free and available to anyone that cares to look on the web. The real rules of how the system works (how it really actually does work in practice at the parks) are at the top of this thread.

    I'll continue to play the game that way, the way it actually works, the way the disney guys programmed it to work. Not by honoring some meaningless expiration time on the ticket.

    cheers
    frodo
    The agreement you have with the Government is that you will submit your taxes properly.. But you can get away without doing it if you want. Only when your audited will you get in trouble. In the same way, Disney just doesn't enforce their rules. The agreement is to return at the right time, but the enforcment has been stopped. That does not change the agreement.

    Basically, agreement != what they have been practicing for years.

    Also noteworthy is that the practice in question has nothing to do with "the way the disney guys programmed it to work." The program is made to work with the return time and estimates and return times are still calculated and printed.

  2. #782

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    Again.. Far to tied up with my use of the word "entitlement". I said "Yes, it is slightly different, but that in no way means that you should be entitled to return whenever you want" meaning that just because you cannot see the return time of each ride no matter where you are, that shouldn't mean the inconvenience of not knowing should allow you to return whenever you wish. Subsequently, I added that the system is a perk, or bonus, not something you have to use, so its not like not always knowing every ride's return time makes it an unfair one. Feel free to use adjectives such as "allowed", or "free to" in place of "entitled" in order to calm your fixation.
    OK, this is obviously going nowhere. I never wrote anything here about "entitlement" or guests feeling "allowed" or "free to". You cannot cite an example of me saying this - because you cannot find one - but you will not admit you were wrong to say it. So you dance around with a series of posts like the above.

    I am done with this.

  3. #783

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Wow. I never realized the seriousness of my actions and that using a fastpass beyond the expiry time was as bad as tax evasion.

    Thank you for helping me realize the error of my ways. I swear on a stack of fastpasses never to use one again beyond the stated time on the fastpass.
    (unless, of course, there is a smiling CM at the entrance who will happily help me commit this heinous crime and send me on with a cheerful 'enjoy the ride' )

    peace
    frodo

  4. #784

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Nobody said what you did was "as bad" as the example I provided, but it was just an instance of making something clear. Although the technique you used there is often very effective, so I understand why you would try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HydroGuy View Post
    OK, this is obviously going nowhere. I never wrote anything here about "entitlement" or guests feeling "allowed" or "free to". You cannot cite an example of me saying this - because you cannot find one - but you will not admit you were wrong to say it. So you dance around with a series of posts like the above.
    ....
    Sure, you never said it explicitly, but from what you have said in this post thus far, this appears to be your stance:

    One should be able to return to a FP ride whenever they wish because the current return time cannot be known and is forced upon you. So, from the post I originally quoted and the others you had posted prior, you seem to think that for that reason everyone should be able to return whenever they wish. There is nothing outlandish here, I'm just following your logic. If you do swoop by again to see what has been posted, have I made any misunderstandings here?

  5. #785

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    I do know that some people definitely plan to intentionally use their Fastpasses like this. When I went to WDW with my family last year, my stepmom's sister and her family suggested that we stock up on Fastpasses throughout the day and use them at the end.

    I thought that was a silly thing to do, especially because I have never had a problem using Fastpasses on time in any of the parks.

    However, I am having a hard time trying to justify to myself why that necessarily is unfair or bad. Sure, that's a far cry from the extenuating circumstances that could cause someone to unintentionally miss the window, but I think Disney is trying to not alienate their guests, especially because it still seems like a large majority of parkgoers don't really understand or use the Fastpass system in the first place.

    I will say that it's really not that hard to use the system as designed, though. Even if you don't get to choose your window, an hour is a fairly long time in ANY of the parks (but gets a little hairy in the big ones like EPCOT or Animal Kingdom). If you/your group gets a Fastpass, you should carefully consider what you can do between then and when your window OPENS. Yes, you have an hour-long window, but if you plan to shoot for the window opening, I really, REALLY doubt you'll lose an hour to whatever crazy circumstance comes up. Once again, I will say that I solidly side with Disney continuing its current practice, but I think that guests also need to be reasonable and use this current policy as an exception and not a practice. Be reasonable and know the limits of yourself and your group.

    Heck, I'll go as far to say that if you plan to be done with something by the time your window OPENS, you can leisurely get to the attraction from anywhere in the park in enough time to make your window. If you've got people that don't mind hustling a little bit, I'd even go as far as to say that you could make it from anywhere in EITHER park to wherever you have your Fastpass in less than an hour.

    I can see both sides of the argument, but I just fail to see how anyone is disadvantaged by guests using their Fastpasses after their window. The only disadvantage I could see occurring is that each window time only gets a limited number of Fastpasses, and MAYBE someone that would or could only use his or her Fastpass during that window doesn't get the opportunity to get a Fastpass for that time, but the windows usually at a small enough time increment to where it really shouldn't be an issue.

  6. #786

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    i look at it this way... i made someones line "move faster" by not showing up at the time window.... and i made another's line "move slower" by showing up past the cut off time... same impact either way.

    If the cutoff time gets enforced in a strict manner ill just go back to rider switch passes
    -Ricky
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  7. #787

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    I apologize if this has been mentioned in the previous 53 pages, but it looks like California Screamin' changed the image on their fastpass this weekend.

    Before it had the Mickey Mouse ears that used to be featured near the loop for the ride. Now the image just has the "wooden" roller coaster track in the background with the text California Screamin'. What's important is that this is the first multi-colored logo used on a Disneyland fastpass.

    Also, I collect fastpasses, and if anyone has any for Haunted Mansion, Pirates of the Caribbean, Winnie the Pooh, Star Tours, it's a small world, or It's Tough to be a Bug, please let me know.
    Co-Host of the WDW Fan Boys Podcast

  8. #788

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    This was highlighted a month or so ago :S

  9. #789

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    I believe that it was you, sir, that first compared using an expired fastpass to tax evasion.

  10. #790

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    The agreement you have with the Government is that you will submit your taxes properly.. But you can get away without doing it if you want. Only when your audited will you get in trouble. In the same way, Disney just doesn't enforce their rules. The agreement is to return at the right time, but the enforcment has been stopped. That does not change the agreement.

    Basically, agreement != what they have been practicing for years.
    Actually, there is no agreement, because all you see is a Fastpass window with a return time on it. There is no sign informing you that if you stick your park ticket into the machine, you will only be able to return in that window. You've agreed to no such thing. Even if there is boilerplate language in fine print on the Fastpass ticket, you received the ticket after you inserted your ticket. The terms and conditions are not made clear to you before you "agreed" to receive the Fastpass, the only thing you agreed to do was receive a return ticket, and the consideration you gave for the contract is your time and the money you spent on Park Admission.

    Splash Mountain warns you about 50 times before you get on the ride that you might get wet. You receive no "time window warnings" when receiving your Fastpass. There is no sign saying "You cannt return after this window expires". There is no contract if the party making the acceptance was not informed of the terms -- if there is no meeting of the minds, there is no agreement, and therefore, no contract. This "agreement" argument would lose in court, even as dizzying as Contract Law can be -- no wonder Disney never tries to enforce it (we won't even begin to get into Custom in Contract Law -- by not enforcing the time window for years and years, it has become established custom that they don't, so anyone obtaining a fastpass and then being denied access to a ride could argue there was no meeting of the minds because Disney set a level of expectation and the party accepting the offer of a fastpass ticket (unless specifically told custom had changed) was following Disney's custom and did not know of the change).

  11. #791

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I believe that it was you, sir, that first compared using an expired fastpass to tax evasion.
    Where did that come from..? And why are you making this about any little thing but the topic at hand? Diverting from the topic makes your points weaker, not stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckyRister View Post
    Actually, there is no agreement, because all you see is a Fastpass window with a return time on it. There is no sign informing you that if you stick your park ticket into the machine, you will only be able to return in that window. You've agreed to no such thing. Even if there is boilerplate language in fine print on the Fastpass ticket, you received the ticket after you inserted your ticket. The terms and conditions are not made clear to you before you "agreed" to receive the Fastpass, the only thing you agreed to do was receive a return ticket, and the consideration you gave for the contract is your time and the money you spent on Park Admission.

    Splash Mountain warns you about 50 times before you get on the ride that you might get wet. You receive no "time window warnings" when receiving your Fastpass. There is no sign saying "You cannt return after this window expires". There is no contract if the party making the acceptance was not informed of the terms -- if there is no meeting of the minds, there is no agreement, and therefore, no contract. This "agreement" argument would lose in court, even as dizzying as Contract Law can be -- no wonder Disney never tries to enforce it (we won't even begin to get into Custom in Contract Law -- by not enforcing the time window for years and years, it has become established custom that they don't, so anyone obtaining a fastpass and then being denied access to a ride could argue there was no meeting of the minds because Disney set a level of expectation and the party accepting the offer of a fastpass ticket (unless specifically told custom had changed) was following Disney's custom and did not know of the change).
    Just because a lawyer doesnt walk out and explain the terms to you does not mean there is no agreement... The "terms" are explained oon the back of the ticket and using the ticket means you agree to those terms. Its the same as when things say "by using" or "by entering this area, you agree to ...." and it is the same here. The return time is posted and it says on the back of the ticket that you are to return during the posted window. Thats an agreement whether you walked past a sign before or not... Things like Splash mountains 50 signs are just extra precautions for the comfort of riders, they are not legally required. In any case, there is no agreement being made there anyway, that is simply a warning. If the sign said "by riding this ride, you accept that you will get wet" then you could compare these two things.

    Basically, if there was no agreement as you propose, then Disney wouldn't need to let you into the FP line in the first time, but there is an agreement so they do. The same way the ticket gets you in at the start of the window, the same way it could officially prevent you from entering the line after your window closes. All the information they need to do this is on your ticket, and if I am in error, I urge you to take Disney to court next time a FP attendant tells you that you are five minutes early and cannot enter the line yet. Also, I'd be sure to inform her that there is no agreement so you demand to be let through.
    Last edited by Trevor; 06-06-2010 at 12:34 AM.

  12. #792

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Does anybody use those new telephone/computer programs to track ride times instead or in conjunction with the use of their Fastpass? How many of them are there? What do they cost? Are they worth it?

  13. #793

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    LMAO, its arguments like above why I love Disney boards.

    A lot of fighting for something that is highly superficial at the end of the day.

  14. #794

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    You are wrong here Trevor. People use this argument all the time but it fails in a court of law most times. Just because you put fine print on it does not make it a contract. Just because Disney puts up signage that says they are not responsible for injury if you have back problems does not mean they don't get sued for it. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, my point is just because they say they have no responsibility doesn't mean a court will agree with them.

    As far as Disney not needing to let you in the fast-pass line, you've missed the point here. As a previous poster noted, the only agreement that has really been made when you put your ticket into a fastpass machine is that you agree to accept a return ticket. However, a return ticket implies that you return and use your ticket. If Disney issued return tickets and then did not let you in the fastpass line they would be breaching the small meeting of the minds that had occured.

    The fact is, if Disney really wants to enforce details, (like fastpass windows) they have to make knowledge of the program more readily available (aka shove it down the guests throats). Otherwise if a guest decides to sue that Disney treated them unfairly there is a reasonable chance they could win. There is a reason Disney does not enforce the fastpass window, it would be more trouble than it's worth.
    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  15. #795

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    There is a big difference though between someone getting hurt after seeing a "warning, this ride moves fast" sign, and the case of using the FP perk. It is true, companies all over the world have tried to use fine print and signs to remove their risks and shift responsibility when danger is a factor with limited success, but this is still different. They are just trying to explain their program, not shift blame.

    As for the fact its more trouble than its worth, we have all established that. This whole debate started when I stated I wish they would bite the bullet.


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