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  1. #796

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    You are right, I suppose my argument was flawed in that FP doesn't carry any risk of physical injury but I still think the comparison is mostly fair. I think we can all agree that Fastpass is too hard to regulate than it is worth. The question remains though whether in spite of this weakness Fastpass OVERALL is more trouble than it's worth. The debate rages on.
    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  2. #797

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    There is a big difference though between someone getting hurt after seeing a "warning, this ride moves fast" sign, and the case of using the FP perk. It is true, companies all over the world have tried to use fine print and signs to remove their risks and shift responsibility when danger is a factor with limited success, but this is still different. They are just trying to explain their program, not shift blame.

    As for the fact its more trouble than its worth, we have all established that. This whole debate started when I stated I wish they would bite the bullet.
    No sir, TrevorD, we have not ALL established that the fastpass is more trouble than it's worth.

    I believe (as do MANY others) that the fastpass is a wonderful thing. I can go on the E-tickets that my kids wont, AND get to spend more time with my kids that I would have otherwise WASTED in the queue. Kids happy, mom, dad happy. I don't have to race back or hang out waiting some area when the group wants to go somewhere else. I can use my fastpass the moment my window opens, or if more convenient, I can use it a bit later in the day. Makes my family's experience more enjoyable. Makes me want to come back more often.

    I dont think Disney will change it either. Not too much trouble for them either. No way for guests to spend more money in the queue is there? Disney would rather have you out spending. (thus FP keeps the accountants happy too)

    First time I saw the FP system I didn't really get it. Now I do. It is the current system, the system is offered the same way to (almost) everybody, and thus, I find it eminently fair. I have seen the light and embrace the joys and pleasure of the Fastpass system.

    Worth the trouble? Despite your continued argument, I can't see the trouble it causes. That you are waiting in standby and I walk by with a FP is not my concern. You have EXACTLY the same opportunity as me or anyone else to utilize the FP system. When I choose to stand in the long queue and see the smiling happy people going by me with FP in hand, it doesn't bother me. I get to do that too, some of the time.

    Cheers, TrevorD, enjoy your time at the park.

    frodo

  3. #798

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    No sir, TrevorD, we have not ALL established that the fastpass is more trouble than it's worth.

    I believe (as do MANY others) that the fastpass is a wonderful thing. I can go on the E-tickets that my kids wont, AND get to spend more time with my kids that I would have otherwise WASTED in the queue. Kids happy, mom, dad happy. I don't have to race back or hang out waiting some area when the group wants to go somewhere else. I can use my fastpass the moment my window opens, or if more convenient, I can use it a bit later in the day. Makes my family's experience more enjoyable. Makes me want to come back more often.

    I dont think Disney will change it either. Not too much trouble for them either. No way for guests to spend more money in the queue is there? Disney would rather have you out spending. (thus FP keeps the accountants happy too)

    First time I saw the FP system I didn't really get it. Now I do. It is the current system, the system is offered the same way to (almost) everybody, and thus, I find it eminently fair. I have seen the light and embrace the joys and pleasure of the Fastpass system.

    Worth the trouble? Despite your continued argument, I can't see the trouble it causes. That you are waiting in standby and I walk by with a FP is not my concern. You have EXACTLY the same opportunity as me or anyone else to utilize the FP system. When I choose to stand in the long queue and see the smiling happy people going by me with FP in hand, it doesn't bother me. I get to do that too, some of the time.

    Cheers, TrevorD, enjoy your time at the park.

    frodo
    Your post is because its not even in respose to what was said. The actual topic was that REMOVING Fastpass is more trouble than its worth. Read carefully.

    Cheers,
    Trevor
    Last edited by Trevor; 06-07-2010 at 10:20 PM. Reason: not to cover up, but to correct an inappropriate statement.

  4. #799

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    Your post is garbage because its not even in respose to what was said. The actual topic was that REMOVING Fastpass is more trouble than its worth. Read carefully.

    Cheers,
    Trevor


    My post is garbage?!? That is uncalled for, rude, a bit childish and still, it makes me laugh. Sorry to have missed or misread of your oh so important posts. (no, I havent gone back to see what I missed)

    Alright then, I agree, removing fastpass then is clearly more trouble that it is worth. This, IMAO, because Fastpass is an asset, a benefit, a good thing, and it's removal has no upside, and thus is not worth removing.

  5. #800

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Sorry, your right. That was a bit harsh. I extend a sincere apology. Lots going on. See your PM.

    In any case, I want to state my clear opinion. I know that FP is an asset because it lets you get on to a select few rides a few times with a minimal "tied up" wait and do not think that it should be removed. However, I do strongly feel that although it would receive some heat and possibly complaints that Disney should bite the bullet and introduce an enforced return time with a 10 minute leniency period (and no more). I recognize the widely held belief that doing so would have a lot of cons and some feel that they outweigh the benefits but after the initial shock I think that many of those cons such as complaints and unfortunate occurrences would be minimized as those used to the current system adapted and guidebooks and clearer Disney literature explain clearly the new procedure. Then and only then could the advanced network used to predict the proper return times for distributed tickets be used to its potential in order to reduce "rushes" and "dead times" at the FP line. Even more, the FP distribution could be listened during peak periods to lessen the wait of the the Standby line (not sure if this happens already). And, in the end, the park would benefit with shorter standby waits.
    Last edited by Trevor; 06-07-2010 at 10:32 PM.

  6. #801

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    Sorry, your right. That was a bit harsh. I extend a sincere apology. Lots going on. See your PM.

    In any case, I want to state my clear opinion. I know that FP is an asset because it lets you get on to a select few rides a few times with a minimal "tied up" wait and do not think that it should be removed. However, I do strongly feel that although it would receive some heat and possibly complaints that Disney should bite the bullet and introduce an enforced return time with a 10 minute leniency period (and no more). I recognize the widely held belief that doing so would have a lot of cons and some feel that they outweigh the benefits but after the initial shock I think that many of those cons such as complaints and unfortunate occurrences would be minimized as those used to the current system adapted and guidebooks and clearer Disney literature explain clearly the new procedure. Then and only then could the advanced network used to predict the proper return times for distributed tickets be used to its potential in order to reduce "rushes" and "dead times" at the FP line. Even more, the FP distribution could be listened during peak periods to lessen the wait of the the Standby line (not sure if this happens already). And, in the end, the park would benefit with shorter standby waits.

    Wow, I didn't know you could go back and edit your previous posts. Make it look like the other guy overreacted. Neat.

    I'm done here. Bye now.

  7. #802

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Wow, I didn't know you could go back and edit your previous posts. Make it look like the other guy overreacted. Neat.

    I'm done here. Bye now.
    I made my intention clear in the editing note. I'm not trying to rewrite history and you had all the right to act as you did. I also will point out that what was said is immortalized in the quote you made.

  8. #803

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    Exclamation Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    ...However, I do strongly feel that...Disney should bite the bullet and introduce an enforced return time with a 10 minute leniency period (and no more). ...
    I disagree with this very much! Having an "open-ended" fastpass is SUCH a convenience to soooo many people. Many people (myself included) pick up a fastpass, and then in their meanderings end up on the other side of the park during their appointed return times... (or families head back in the crowded heeat of the day to their hotels for a rest.)

    I haven't read all the postings here, but in my opinion, I don't see what the big deal is to have the return time open-ended...?
    If the FP line is a little emptier at times - hooray for all those in the standby line, their wait got a little shorter...
    If there are several Fastpassers returning all at once, oh well - they still won't have *that* much longer of a wait and the people in regular queue expect to wait (they probably have their own Fastpasses to other attractions in their pockets)... it will just be a bit longer for a short period...
    Personally (and I know I am not alone by any means), being able to choose your own return time is a WONDERFUL option and eliminates a ton of waiting in long lines rather than enjoying your vacation. Rushing across the park or having to wait around before heading to the hotel just to get to your ride before your Fastpass expires is really an awful concept.

    The convenience to those few that utilize some high-tech system of analyzing wait times in comparison is really minimal in comparison (and really couldn't add all *that* much to the times that are posted).

    Please please don't try to take away something that so many people really love just to convenience the few!

  9. #804

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    The inconvenience might be more than you know. The many stuck in the stand by line are probably not to happy with the system and wonder where their convenience is.

    Of course the system sounds bad when you make it sound like your tied to the FP ticket and that it destroys all of your plans and is a huge inconvenience but think about it. That ticket is possibly saving you hours in line. If you can't make one trip across the park or better yet plan a little bit to end up near it when the time opens, then I think you are expecting to much from the system that is already such a convenience.

    Sure, the openendedness is good for those who use it, and Its hard to take the stand that says it should be no more, but I think that the hidden benifits of a faster standby time are an important benifit.

  10. #805

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD View Post
    Where did that come from..? And why are you making this about any little thing but the topic at hand? Diverting from the topic makes your points weaker, not stronger.



    Just because a lawyer doesnt walk out and explain the terms to you does not mean there is no agreement... The "terms" are explained oon the back of the ticket and using the ticket means you agree to those terms. Its the same as when things say "by using" or "by entering this area, you agree to ...." and it is the same here. The return time is posted and it says on the back of the ticket that you are to return during the posted window. Thats an agreement whether you walked past a sign before or not... Things like Splash mountains 50 signs are just extra precautions for the comfort of riders, they are not legally required. In any case, there is no agreement being made there anyway, that is simply a warning. If the sign said "by riding this ride, you accept that you will get wet" then you could compare these two things.

    Basically, if there was no agreement as you propose, then Disney wouldn't need to let you into the FP line in the first time, but there is an agreement so they do. The same way the ticket gets you in at the start of the window, the same way it could officially prevent you from entering the line after your window closes. All the information they need to do this is on your ticket, and if I am in error, I urge you to take Disney to court next time a FP attendant tells you that you are five minutes early and cannot enter the line yet. Also, I'd be sure to inform her that there is no agreement so you demand to be let through.
    Um...no.

    Having suffered through Contract Law, I can tell you unequivocally...um...no.

    Disney advertises Fastpass. Ads are not offers. They are invitations to offers.

    Person shows up and he is instructed to insert his park ticket to receive a return window, but nothing else at that time instructs him this is the only return window. He walks away with a stub, with fine print on it that he has not been instructed to read.

    Person returns, hours after stated time window. The Offeror now has the power to rescind the offer, because THERE HAS BEEN NO AGREEMENT WITH THE OFFEREE.

    Disney (Offeror) does not rescind the offer. The Offeree (everyone who gets a FastPass) presents the stub. It is now up to DISNEY to ACCEPT THAT OFFER. And Disney agrees, every time. It is DISNEY that is agreeing to the offer of the stub, and that is where the contract is made.

    Ads are not offers. They are invitations to offers. The Fastpass machines are OFFERS for an AGREEMENT to be made AT A LATER TIME.

    You are bashing the people who receive the stubs as violating an agreement, when the stubs are simply invitations for an agreement at a later date, an agreement that Disney (apparently) routinely accepts.

    I don't know what law school you went to, but you need a refresher course on things learned in the first three weeks of Contracts.

  11. #806

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    The inconvenience might be more than you know. The many stuck in the stand by line are probably not to happy with the system and wonder where their convenience is.
    Their convenience is in the same place mine is - the FP machine. For the 78,453rd time, if they didn't like the outcome of their choice this time, they should make a different choice next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    Sure, the openendedness is good for those who use it, and Its hard to take the stand that says it should be no more, but I think that the hidden benifits of a faster standby time are an important benifit.
    Are you really arguing points like contract law without having the ability to properly spell the word "benefit"? Really?

    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

  12. #807

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckyRister View Post
    Um...no.

    Having suffered through Contract Law, I can tell you unequivocally...um...no.

    Disney advertises Fastpass. Ads are not offers. They are invitations to offers.

    Person shows up and he is instructed to insert his park ticket to receive a return window, but nothing else at that time instructs him this is the only return window. He walks away with a stub, with fine print on it that he has not been instructed to read.

    Person returns, hours after stated time window. The Offeror now has the power to rescind the offer, because THERE HAS BEEN NO AGREEMENT WITH THE OFFEREE.

    Disney (Offeror) does not rescind the offer. The Offeree (everyone who gets a FastPass) presents the stub. It is now up to DISNEY to ACCEPT THAT OFFER. And Disney agrees, every time. It is DISNEY that is agreeing to the offer of the stub, and that is where the contract is made.

    Ads are not offers. They are invitations to offers. The Fastpass machines are OFFERS for an AGREEMENT to be made AT A LATER TIME.

    You are bashing the people who receive the stubs as violating an agreement, when the stubs are simply invitations for an agreement at a later date, an agreement that Disney (apparently) routinely accepts.

    I don't know what law school you went to, but you need a refresher course on things learned in the first three weeks of Contracts.
    So wait, your saying that the big instruction signs that outline the steps for getting and using fastpasses positioned at each FP distribution center are just advertisements? That is simply not true. The procedure for using FP is clearly spelled out at each distribution area.

    Also, I urge you to read carefully from the start. I am not stating that anyone is breaking an agreement because I understand that Disney is letting this happen. What I am saying is that Disney would be within its rights to deny people use of the tickets after the window closes. From your description (which is accurate) they would indeed be able to do this. We are actually in agreement on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoplemoverMatt View Post
    Their convenience is in the same place mine is - the FP machine. For the 78,453rd time, if they didn't like the outcome of their choice this time, they should make a different choice next time.

    Are you really arguing points like contract law without having the ability to properly spell the word "benefit"? Really?
    People can not always just choose to get a FP though. FP tickets are running out sooner and sooner and if the people who entered the FP line instead got FP tickets the stations would run out even sooner. Because it is such a popular argument for why return times are unfair, perhaps the inconvenience of getting a FP in the first place should be stated as a reason that it is not always possible. Sometimes its just impossible to get through that parade or across the whole park.

    In any case, just saying that those people in the standby line should be fine with waiting longer because they didn't get a FP is not legitimate. There are many reasons that a FP can't be acquired (including the abuse of the system) and the regular guest is already getting screwed as it is.

    Also, that last point is interesting. I didn't know that mixing an "e" and an "i" deems someone to stupid to participate in online discussion. I've been a shotty speller my whole life and I will always be. That does not void my ideas. As said before, lets discuss the actual points instead of devoting half a post to trying to convince someone that a poster is incompitent due to a spelling error. There are much more interesting things to discuss like how you've been wrong 78 453 times.
    Last edited by Trevor; 06-09-2010 at 01:02 AM.

  13. #808

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    People can not always just choose to get a FP though. FP tickets are running out sooner and sooner and if the people who entered the FP line instead got FP tickets the stations would run out even sooner. Because it is such a popular argument for why return times are unfair, perhaps the inconvenience of getting a FP in the first place should be stated as a reason that it is not always possible. Sometimes its just impossible to get through that parade or across the whole park.
    Yes they can "always" choose to get a FP. What you're talking about is the inability to choose to get a FP and do X, Y, Z other things in addition to getting the FP. It might be "inconvenient" to have to choose the FP over X, Y, Z other things, but that doesn't change the fact that there IS always the choice to obtain the FP, or risk having them being all sold out.

    The choice is always with the guest. The guest chooses what side of the park to be on, in the case of the impossible to cross parade/park, and how to prioritize their location at any given point during the day. That may not seem fair at its face, but since the beginning of time with theme parks, people have always had to choose exactly where they'll be at different points during the day, and they've never had perfect information with which to make that choice. FastPass is just another choice along those very same lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    In any case, just saying that those people in the standby line should be fine with waiting longer because they didn't get a FP is not legitimate. There are many reasons that a FP can't be acquired (including the abuse of the system) and the regular guest is already getting screwed as it is.
    What part of the fact that it all comes down to making choices and accepting the consequences of those choices is unclear? Yes those people in the STAND-BY line should be fine with waiting because they are in the STAND-BY line and they CHOSE to be in there. I don't understand why this is difficult to understand. What abuse of the system prevents a guest from obtaining a FP? Why is the regular guest "getting screwed"? You just throw those claims out with absolutely nothing behind them. You're just mudslinging at this point hoping something sticks.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorD
    As said before, lets discuss the actual points instead of devoting half a post to trying to convince someone that a poster is incompitent due to a spelling error. There are much more interesting things to discuss like how you've been wrong 78 453 times.
    Yeah, I think I'm wasting my time here. When you lack support for your argument, you simply retreat back to "You're wrong." When someone counters your points with facts, you retreat back to "Well that may be true but insert baseless claim here."

    Anyway, what are we arguing about again? Yes Disney could be well within its rights to close the loophole, but they won't for reasons we've already gone over over & over again. It does Disney absolutely no good to piss off a lot of guests simply for the reasons of making a miniscule difference that, to my knowledge, no guest is complaining about & demanding a change about. Is there any average guest who's complaining about people being able to use their FP after 60 minutes post FP window opening? To my knowledge, not a single one is. However, should Disney ever start strictly enforcing the closing of the window, I'll bet you the entire state of Alaska that A LOT of average guests would immediately start complaining about that! It would make absolutely zero sense for Disney to close the loophole, even though they could.

    "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

  14. #809

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    So if a guest is forced to choose between ten different two hour lines, they should be happy with the one they have to chose? And moreover, they should be happy with that choice knowing that other people are making that wait longer by saving up FP's to shorten their own wait?

    Arriving after noon and not being able to get a Fastpass for Space is not the "inability to choose to get a FP and do X, Y, Z" as you say, but it is purely an inability to use the system period. You should not be expected to arrive at 7am to enjoy your day at Disneyland, and the people paying huge money to get to the park at any time should all have the opportunity to enjoy reasonable line times to any attraction. As explained, it is not persay the direct "abuse" of the system that will prevent people from getting a FP but simply that your suggestion would not work. If everyone decided to "make a different choice next time" and get a FP, the FP's for every ride would run out extremely quickly leaving even more paying guets without the opportunity to use the system. To that end, many people have to use the Standby line for the overall system to work. With that in mind, I feel that Disney should enforce the return window to protect later day guests from waiting even longer in said standby line. This is the point where our opinions differ and we will never come into agreement on this topic. Nothing is unclear, we just have different outlooks. Thats fine with me.

    Two observations though. I was initially told when I entered this debate that not many people at all were coming back after the return time so I shouldn't worry about such a silly thing. Now, you just wrote me few sentances worth of hyperbole about how many people this change would upset. Unfortunately, you cannot play both sides of the argument. It is either only a few or "the entire state of Alaska". Likewise, if people "have always had to choose exactly where they'll be at different points during the day," why can they not choose to be in the area of the park where their FP will be valid? And somehow I am the one who is changing my facts and trying to see what sticks?

    Lets also consider that you are downplaying the fact that I was indeed right that they "could" close the loophole when that is the sole point I have been arguing for the last few pages. I know that everyone here wanted me to be saying that it is wrong for guests to break the rules by using the FP after the window because that would make me wrong and therefore easier to argue with, but me explaining my actual position to counter that confusion does not count as saying "Well that may be true but insert baseless claim here." Its actually more like "The point your making is valid but nobody was saying that." See the difference?

    Lastly, again nothing yells a pointless claim like bringing up a spelling error for half a post to make someone should bad. So please don't try and convince whoever is reading that I am the person trying to throw this thread off topic in order to somehow become "right".

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    Re: The Joy of FASTPASS - details and secrets

    While at DLR, I've never seen anyone up in arms about the Fastpass system but I have seen confusion. Confusion concerning whether it is an offer acquired through an additional fee.

    Maybe at the core of the problem is that the offer is not clearly advertised by DLR as it should be. Whether it be via the official website or in the paper media distributed to guests during their visit. Guests are uninformed or completely unaware of the Fastpass system.

    If we're gonna start a blame game...
    The Fastpass system is given a brief summary inside the park map. First-timers to DLR are usually all fired up to start their day that they completely ignore the text and go straight to the brightly colored attractions map. Infrequent guests' first thoughts are usually, "What's all this about a pass.... Oh look! Haunted Mansion is in this direction. Hurry up before the line gets longer."

    In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the Fastpass system. Currently, only those knowledgeable of the Fastpass system are reaping the benefits of what the Fastpass system has to offer. Perhaps DLR should offer a crash course in the Fastpass system. That should level the playing field.


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