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  1. #61

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    I think you pretty much know what my stance is on this topic.

    In case some missed it, here's the link to the post:

    http://www.micechat.com/forums/showt...82#post1862582

    Thanks, Swab!

  2. #62

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    For those who are still not convinced that the world of tomorrow is worth pursuing, I want you to read this article (please ) and think of this question: How many children today are growing up without the inspiration necessary for them to become the breakthrough people (scientists, thinkers, etc.) of tomorrow?

    http://www.space.com/news/rutan_interview_041014.html

  3. #63

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Another person inspired by Disneyland: George Lucas.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=ZC2...UoYA0#PPA21,M1

    If the link doesn't work, do a book search at http://books.google.com for Skywalking. Go to page 21 for his first and subsequent experiences at Disneyland.

    To quote the book:" Disneyland is a movie that invites its audience right into the screen, combining mass appeal with mechanical ingenuity. ...The sense of thrill engendered by Disneyland has never deserted Lucas. It stayed buried deep inside him, emerging later on film."

  4. #64

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    (As far as I know, I wasn't there...) When Disneyland first opened you had Main Street, Adventureland, and Frontierland which were all mostly places to experience. They all had things to look at roving shows, street performers, and the occasional ride, but even the rides were experiential (Wagons through a trail, boats down a river). Fantasyland on the other hand was all about the rides.

    Tomorrowland followed the same pattern as the not-Fantasyland lands. It was experiential, things to look at, the rocket to the moon was akin to the Wagons and the Boats.

    Since then the whole park has changed. Not necessarily a bad thing. Less emphasis is placed on place, and more on rides. Slowly over the years more rides have been added. So it's not only Tomorrowland that's become a juxtaposed collection of loosely related attractions.

    But often Tomorrowland is singled out as specifically lacking. Is it because part of its dedication statement was aspirational, and because aspiration's goalposts are continuously being moved by the passing of time?

    So as I see it we have two aspects to this, one is the theme of Tomorrowland and two is its attractions. The theme is important but without attractions it's just an empty shell. And the attractions need to match the theme.

    A theme of tomorrow suffers from the march of aspiration. Any chosen futuristic aesthetic will look out of date within ten years. So how do we solve that problem? I don't think it can be solved.


    Where does this leave Tomorrowland? Either as an area that needs major regular work to keep it fresh. Or as an area that needs a theme taken from a historic view of tomorrow, something that isn't a moving target. That's probably why DLP chose the fantast(y)ic Verne theme and put aside any thought of real world aspiration.


    Walt's Tomorrowland was something of a pet project of his. Anyone who's seen Walt's original utopian design for Epcot (a perfect city and industrial park) will know what I mean. The people mover and the monorail were experiments for real world public transport. Walt's fundamental plan for Tomorrowland is probably an impossible target.
    Disney FAQ#275: What is DCA?
    DCA stands for Disney Construction Area. All the Cast Members are themed with hard hats and steel toed boots.

  5. #65

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Epcot will be built one day, it must.

    I think going retro is the best way to clean it all up, were really stuck in any theme we get, a future city wouldnt work, a future transportation wouldnt work, discoveryland wouldnt work! Hopefully WDI has better plans for2009 than i do

  6. #66

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    First off, Tomorrowland 98 did not fail. The whole idea of the project was to change the theme of Tomorrowland from a realistic vision of the future, to a celebration of the IDEA of the future - realistic and fantasy - from all ages. Maybe it was too lofty of a goal, but it definitely has merit.

    And today, just above, we had someone asking for a return to Walt Disney's original vision of the future, despite the fact that his particular view of the future is over 40 years old now. Why suggest that Walt's view of the future is adequate for Tomorrowland, but some of the other great visionaries in the history of the world are not?

    Tomorrowland '98 did fail in almost every respect.

    Reviews for the revamp were less than stellar. The Rocket Rods, Tomorrowland '98's centerpiece, closed two years after opening. The Orbitron encountered technical problems for years, and was only recently fixed to work as intended during the park's 50th Anniversary celebration. Cosmic Waves was reduced to nothing more than the giant marble. Innoventions still struggles to draw crowds, and most of it has been reduced to a free arcade (VMK, XBOX, DisneyInteractive). "Honey, I Shrunk the Audience" is terribly unbusy, even during peak seasons. Most people have no idea that the plantlife in Tomorrowland is supposed to represent some ill-concieved "Agrifuture" theme. And the land's bronzed color scheme was ditched for a blue, white, and silver scheme shortly before Disneyland's 50th.

    Most of Tomorrowland '98 no longer exists, and the features that are left over certainly aren't popular offerings in the land.


    One online blogger wrote an entire rant about the New Tomorrowland and how it was "not worth the wait" (http://www.eskimo.com/~webguy/writings/disney98.html)
    I had higher expectations. It appears Disney's Imagineers didn't use their imagination very much for this project. Most of the rides were rehashed or had nothing to do with Tomorrow. For this they spent $100 million? There was only one ride which I liked (Honey, I Shrunk the Audience) but even this ride was similar to the previous one it replaced (Captain EO). What else did I like? The American Space Experience exhibit was excellent but I'm biased for space technology. I did notice the exhibit wasn't listed as an attraction in the souvenir brochure map. Bad oversight. I found the American Space Experience exhibit by chance actually. And the exhibit looks better at night.

    .....

    Ever since Disneyland put up ToonTown, I felt there was something missing in the new attractions but I really couldn't put my finger on it. Now with the New Tomorrowland, I think I know what it is. Many of the new rides/attractions don't have humanity in them anymore.

    Janelle Brown from Salon.com (http://archive.salon.com/21st/featur...28feature.html) said this about Tomorrowland '98:
    In the 1990s Innoventions world, that seems to mean family-size couches in front of video games with multiplayer capabilities. Walt's naive 1950s optimism for our technological future -- his grand "predictions of things to come" -- will not be replicated for the jaded generations of a 21st century Disneyland. Somewhere between then and now, Tomorrowland apparently lost the will to prophesy.

    Another online blogger (http://lostworld.pair.com/disneyland...ip-report.html) had this to day about the Rocket Rods:
    I'm going to come right out and say it-- the Rods stink. From the God-awful theming to the mediocre ride, this ride just lags well behind Disney standards. Since DL was billing it as a thrill ride, I was very excited -- you've seen my enthusiasm in past trip reports. But what a let down. I rode twice, once now, once at closing. Over 2 hour waits both times.

    ...

    All in all, a big disappointment. I really hope they get a cash infusion and do something with it. Maybe build a new banked section of track? Better effects? Or may it's hopeless?


    Anyway, Tomorrowland '98 is hardly a success story.

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  7. #67

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by monotonehell View Post
    But often Tomorrowland is singled out as specifically lacking. Is it because part of its dedication statement was aspirational, and because aspiration's goalposts are continuously being moved by the passing of time?
    Tomorrowland is singled out because 5 years ago it was a wasteland. You had Star Tours, HISTA & Innoventions. Space Mtn was closed for rehab, BLAB was in the building process, and the subs at that time were not showing any prospect of ever re-opening.

    Quote Originally Posted by monotonehell View Post
    A theme of tomorrow suffers from the march of aspiration. Any chosen futuristic aesthetic will look out of date within ten years. So how do we solve that problem? I don't think it can be solved.
    If everyone felt that way about a challenge, we never would have gotten further than the invention of the wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by monotonehell View Post
    Where does this leave Tomorrowland? Either as an area that needs major regular work to keep it fresh. Or as an area that needs a theme taken from a historic view of tomorrow, something that isn't a moving target. That's probably why DLP chose the fantast(y)ic Verne theme and put aside any thought of real world aspiration.
    It was done that way because it was cheap and easy. Genuine rewards don't come without a little elbow grease.

    Quote Originally Posted by monotonehell View Post
    Walt's Tomorrowland was something of a pet project of his. Anyone who's seen Walt's original utopian design for Epcot (a perfect city and industrial park) will know what I mean. The people mover and the monorail were experiments for real world public transport. Walt's fundamental plan for Tomorrowland is probably an impossible target.
    Epcot didn't work because the vision behind it passed away, and those left to carry on didn't have the same committment to it. It doesn't mean it was impossible.

    You get what you pay (and work) for. If people want things cheap and easy, then, by all means, shut everything down and turn it into the shopping mall it was destined to be before Pressler & Harriss were removed from the management. Just remember, you also reap what you sow. Cheap and easy efforts brings about cheap and lacking results. Not only in the park, but also in the lack of inspiration for the people who may become your next elected official, or better yet, the surgeon who's about to save your life.

  8. #68

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by monotonehell View Post
    Walt's Tomorrowland was something of a pet project of his. Anyone who's seen Walt's original utopian design for Epcot (a perfect city and industrial park) will know what I mean. The people mover and the monorail were experiments for real world public transport. Walt's fundamental plan for Tomorrowland is probably an impossible target.

    We certainly differ in the opinion that TL can't be 'solved'. Is the framework for TL an 'impossible target', or a 'constant encouragement'? I'm not qualified to say what Walt was striving for, or what he would or would not be happy with; but I am uniquely qualified to decide (definitively) what I am happy with. A pretty good post (for an Aussie)! .

  9. #69

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    If the entire land's electricity (or at least Autopia) were Solar Powered with some of GE's newest cell which take up almost no room, I think that would go a long way to emphasizing the message of conserving today for tomorrow when hopefully all energy will come from non-burning renewable energy resources.

    That was what was cool about the Universe of Energy at EPCOT back in the early 80's, the solar energy technology. Now the technology is so much better, there is no reason to not use it as a showcase of the future.

  10. #70

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Tomorrowland depresses me. Of course I grew up in the 1950's and 1960's and Tomorrowland was THE land to go to! There was so much there. Now it is an empty shell of "filler rides". There are plenty of things they could do there. Bring Cranium Command and Body Wars, Health issues are very futuristic and the advances to be made could create some very interesting attractions. Get rid of some of the cartoony rides, (I know kids LOVE BLAB, but really, Tomorrowland NEEDS to, no, MUST be updated to reflect the ideas and imagination of what we could attain *tomorrow*. To tell you the truth, Tomorrowland used to be the first land I rushed into to see, now DH and I NEVER even go there. Very sad. I hope they at least have some things on the drawing board for this wasted space. It is a shame.
    Sues

  11. #71

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    If Disneyland has to update Tomorrowland every 10 years just to keep it futuristic then there will be problems. Perhaps that opens to door to rides like the peoplemover. We should assume that nothing like the peoplemover will ever be installed in other places as a method of transportation. If it isn't anywhere else, then it may always be construed as cutting edge because no one else has it!

    Funny to think that maybe the solution for Tomorrowland is to make things less possible to ensure that it will always be unique.

    I hope that made sense. In my twisted mind it made perfect sense.

    Chad

  12. #72

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by cindersgirl View Post
    It was done that way because it was cheap and easy. Genuine rewards don't come without a little elbow grease.
    (Quote referring to why Discoveryland was built in Paris instead of a real "Tomorrowland")

    I assume you have not seen Discoveryland? Nothing about it was cheap nor easy, nor done without "elbow grease." It's a different theme than Tomorrowland--nothing more nor less-- just as Frontierland is a different theme.

  13. #73

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Tomorrowland is ALL about change, the world changing around us at a high rate of speed. If Tomorrowland needs some upgrading and updating every few years, then so be it. Get a few really strong anchor attractions and then change some out as they get stale or outdated. Walt said, it should always keep changing. Let the Imagineers do what they do best, Imagine...Now there is a novel idea for Disney suits to consider!
    I would not mind seeing some of the older attractions come back *UPDATED* The peoplemover is still futuristic in many ways just as much as the monorail and most big cities now have a some version of a monorail type transport system. We rather enjoyed the 360 degree movie, just change it out often enough that it keeps up with the changing times. Innoventions has to go, they are taking up precious space that could better be used for a really cool attraction. And they could even update ATIS for the future. There are so many avenues to explore and they are taking the cheap way out and not letting the imagineers really let it rip!
    I would not mind seeing Tomorrowland leveled and redone if the end result was an exceptional place in the park, not the boring walk through to see what is going on "over there" IF we decide to make the walk "over there"
    sues

  14. #74

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Bring back the 360 degree theater, show a future ravaged by global warming and you have a very scary dark ride...

    The future theme is difficult for the same reason the western theme is difficult in Frontierland, our attitudes towards both have changed dramatically. In the mid to late fifties, the west seemed quaint, rugged individualism was an American Hallmark and it was okay to wipe out other cultures... the future was all possibility and optomism, and science was going to create solutions that were going to make life easy, enjoyable and ultimately consumer friendly. NOW... we realize wiping out native cultures isn't good, westward expansion came at great cost to those cultures and the scientific solutions created in some ways as many problems as they solved. Both lands became tougher sells because our views of the ideals became more gray, less technicolor.

    I do think we can find answers to those cultural issues however. Star Trek is a great example of one way to help create a "vision" that fits with the proposed ideas of Tomorrowland. The thing I always loved about Star Trek (and I'm not a Trekkie at all) was that the premise PRESUPPOSED that Earth had found a way to make peace, and now they were setting out to do the same in the Universe. Einstein said that Imagination is more important than knowledge and it's for this reason. If you can IMAGINE something, then your mind starts trying to find ways to make it happen. If Tomorrowland stuck to visions of a far off time that Pre-supposes ideals we want in the future, then it becomes a seed for our imaginations to start the work of making it come true. Ecological transportation systems, a world at peace, medical advancements that make diseases a thing of the past, interstellar exploration and encountering new civilizations and finding ways to learn from them...these all seem like things that could be explored that fit a future theme that won't expire in ten years.

    Maybe what really needs to be tweaked IS the thrust of the attractions and not the color scheme of the land itself. I could take a disjointed thematic look in tomorrowland if the feeling I walked away with after visiting the attractions was one of hope and a desire to make this Tomorrowland happen in the real world.

  15. #75

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    I am so used to debating PL68, I hardly know what to say when I am in complete agreement with him**; How 'bout: really good post, and a concise accurate summation of the challenges faced when designing attractions for 'tomorrow'. Well done.



    **I still think cultural genocide has its place if themed properly, and there is no movie tie-in.

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