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  1. #76

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    The big question is whether Tomorrowland will/should be based in futurism or retro-futurism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_studies

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro_futurism

    The World Future Society and WDI should get together regularly for brainstorming sessions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Future_Society

    http://www.myspace.com/thefuturistmagazine

    However, if you browse through some of those, you realize that genuine futurist topics are often somewhat bland and complex, since they deal with various real-life current issues, problems, and challenges. There's not a lot of romanticism and "fun" involved.

    The 1950s, however, were right smack dab in the middle of a watershed period in history when the public discourse was awash with discussion of a number of topics involving science and how it was related to the future - space exploration, rocketry, atomic chemistry & power, rapid changes in public transportation, and a myriad of other technological advances were sprouting up like so much grass after a rainstorm. Many of these topics lent themselves to romantic ideas, and the public eagerly ate it up. Over the next several decades, however, real life started setting in, and real-life issues began dulling the sparkle on these lofty dreams and flights of fancy (budget cuts at NASA, for example, ending the Apollo program and cutting back on further space exploration put a huge dent in the public interest; combined with the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal, it seriously tarnished the more utopian dreams that had been touted in the 1950s). The increasing fear and further study of atomic energy revealed more problems with it than the promises had led us to believe, and the oil shocks of the 1970s only added to the lessening of romanticism about travel and transportation.

    All of these things had an effect on Tomorrowland, which is why its shining, optimistic vision of the future began looking dated in the 1980s and 1990s. The ideas were no longer fresh and exciting, but unfortunately, there wasn't a whole lot that had replaced it in the public mindset, other than post-apocalyptic disaster scenarios and chaotic cyberpunk ideas, neither of which would be considered appealing or romantic. In the meantime, any ideas that were considered intriguing and "fun" were usually coming from other Hollywood studios, whether they were space fantasy-related (Star Wars) or more closely related to Earth's future, if still highly fictional (Star Trek). The public latched onto both, but neither were connected with the original Tomorrowland concepts (and if they were, there were other issues related to copyright and so forth that got in the way), and were more insular within their fictional constructs than they were about Earth and its actual future.

    At the same time, when it came to genuine cutting edge science, EPCOT usually got the lion's share of the best ideas coming out of WDI, not to mention funding dollars. So Disneyland's Tomorrowland continued to languish.

    And so today, we still have a mishmash of thematic ideas and concepts, few of them related, few of them cohesive, and few of them educational or thought-provoking in any real sense. They're more about short-term fun and only thinly related to science.

    Tomorrowland needs an overriding theme, so that all the attractions within it relate to that theme in some fashion. It should make science and the benefits of science a centerpiece.

  2. #77

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    I assume you have not seen Discoveryland? Nothing about it was cheap nor easy, nor done without "elbow grease." It's a different theme than Tomorrowland--nothing more nor less-- just as Frontierland is a different theme.
    No, I've never been to Disneyland Paris. I've seen pictures of it, and what I've seen is very remarkable, however that was what was intended for DLP. It was designed to be different than the tomorrowland at DLR, and rightfully should remain that way. Disney spared no expense in building it that way. That is what makes it unique from DLR, and what makes it a destination to go to than just sticking with DLR in Anaheim.

    The changes made to Anaheim's Tomorrowland, to copy what was done in in France, was made cheap and easy. That was part of the reason why it didn't work.

    The other reason, in my opinion, pertains more with people's expectations of DLR in Anaheim. A lot of people had been there before, or had at least heard about the "constructive future" ideas that had been historically done there, but that's not what they got. What they got instead was a cheap reproduction of what had worked in France, and a poorly planned one at that.

    I hope this makes sense and in no way disses on the park in Paris. As I said before, I've never been there, would like to go there someday, but with other obligations it's not on the horizon for me right now.

  3. #78

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    So Pirates that pilage and plunder are ok but Cowboys and indians are wrong? What a sad truth, damn PC Nazi's

  4. #79

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Anyway, Tomorrowland '98 is hardly a success story.
    Tomorrowland 98 had one failed attraction, and at that an attraction that failed for mechanical reasons.

    In fact several parts of Tomorrowland 98 still exist today. Redd Rockett's Pizza Port is probably the most popular restaurant in all of Disneyland. Space Mountain's audio soundtrack has become a staple of that attraction. Innoventions brought life back to an empty building and the phase 2 addition of Autopia created a hugely popular attraction with 60 minute waits.

    HISTA seems far more popular than it should be. I remember the last few years of Captain EO, and after 10 years that show barely drew in 20 to 30 people per show. HISTA seems to do dynamite business compared to that, even 10 years after it was installed.

    The only two things that failed were the Rocket Rods and the paint scheme. And as for the paint scheme, well, which do you think is more creative:







    The white color scheme was a political move by a Disneyland President who wanted to appease Passholders instead of do the right thing, and luckily he is no longer with the company.

  5. #80

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    In fact several parts of Tomorrowland 98 still exist today. ... Space Mountain's audio soundtrack has become a staple of that attraction. Innoventions brought life back to an empty building...
    The SM soundtrack predated Tomorrowland 98.


    And anything (ride, shop or show) would have brought more life to the Innoventions building than what's there now.

    Really, if simply filling in empty space was a goal in itself, there's probably no limit to how much real estate they could "bring back to life" by allowing outside vendors to set up shop.

  6. #81

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Tomorrowland 98 had one failed attraction, and at that an attraction that failed for mechanical reasons.
    Hardly, what about the wasted peoplemover track, the Orbitron, the Astro Orbitor being moved to block the entryway and put on the floor, Innoventions, leaving the sub lagoon empty and the stupid Rolling Stone. Stop kidding yourself, it was a travesty.

  7. #82

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    "The white color scheme was a political move by a Disneyland President who wanted to appease Passholders instead of do the right thing, and luckily he is no longer with the company."

    Whoa! i can't believe that you just said that about Matt! He did what the public wanted. There wasn't very much in TL '98 people liked, minus the soundtrack added to space mt. Rocket rods failed because of budget cuts made by pass disneyland presidents and CEOs and to me, i can't beleive they closed down a attraction to make it a food court, there are more useful places for that. If it wasn't for this past president, meaning matt, the 50th would have been a huge huge waste, we wouldn't have got nemo in the submarine lagoon, instead it would be paved over with a crappy playground like disney world has in their fantasyland. And he knew what the public wanted, most of the public hated the new paint scheme, creative does not always been better!

  8. #83

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    We certainly differ in the opinion that TL can't be 'solved'. Is the framework for TL an 'impossible target', or a 'constant encouragement'?
    I'm not saying that TL can't be solved. I'm saying that any one solution for TL will involve a thematic style that will become dated within 10 years. Pick any vision of the future, they are all informed by their contemporary public mindset. What was wondrous and futuristic to Verne's contemporaries seems kitch these days. Any theme settled on to represent "tomorrow" has an expiry date.

    As I said above, any such plan will need major periodic renovations. So yes it would be a 'constant encouragement', and for that read 'constant expenditure'.

    Quote Originally Posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    I'm not qualified to say what Walt was striving for, or what he would or would not be happy with; but I am uniquely qualified to decide (definitively) what I am happy with.
    Well I AM qualified! That's right I do know WWWD! Well okay perhaps not but if you study his thoughts on the original TL and then how they evolved into his thoughts for EPCOT Cities, I think you have a pretty good insight on what was in his mind before 1965.

    Quote Originally Posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    A pretty good post (for an Aussie)! .
    Watch it Forecastle Swab, that kind of talk will earn you a keel hauling!


    Quote Originally Posted by TiaDalmaFan View Post
    The big question is whether Tomorrowland will/should be based in futurism or retro-futurism.
    ...
    And so today, we still have a mishmash of thematic ideas and concepts, few of them related, few of them cohesive, and few of them educational or thought-provoking in any real sense. They're more about short-term fun and only thinly related to science.

    Tomorrowland needs an overriding theme, so that all the attractions within it relate to that theme in some fashion. It should make science and the benefits of science a centerpiece.
    Now THAT post fills in the supporting details that go behind my post above regarding the impossibility of a style of theme that will last for more than 10 years.

    I must point out that TiaDalmaFan's post was an extremely well informed piece of work that posses the question that Steve, I and others have been trying to express in our clumsy ways. But also illustrates the reasons that 1950's aspirational romanticism didn't work during the pessimistic nineties (post-apocalyptic and cyberpunk) nor the neo-realist naughties (pre-apocalyptic and environmental pessimism). Neither which fit Disneyland's escapist and happiest place on Earth persona.


    Quote Originally Posted by cindersgirl View Post
    No, I've never been to Disneyland Paris. I've seen pictures of it, and what I've seen is very remarkable, however that was what was intended for DLP. It was designed to be different than the tomorrowland at DLR, and rightfully should remain that way. Disney spared no expense in building it that way. That is what makes it unique from DLR, and what makes it a destination to go to than just sticking with DLR in Anaheim.

    The changes made to Anaheim's Tomorrowland, to copy what was done in in France, was made cheap and easy. That was part of the reason why it didn't work.

    The other reason, in my opinion, pertains more with people's expectations of DLR in Anaheim. A lot of people had been there before, or had at least heard about the "constructive future" ideas that had been historically done there, but that's not what they got. What they got instead was a cheap reproduction of what had worked in France, and a poorly planned one at that.

    I hope this makes sense and in no way disses on the park in Paris. As I said before, I've never been there, would like to go there someday, but with other obligations it's not on the horizon for me right now.
    I think your views on a Verne inspired Discoveryland are a bit tarnished by the crappy TL98 makeover. No one is suggesting a return to that. What we're suggesting is a theme that is not based on a style that will expire as I mentioned above.

    Instead of trying to continue with TL as a view of THE Future (1986 came and went and was nothing like TL55), why not go the fantasy route and make it a view of a future. Something that is static and doesn't have constantly moving goalposts.


    Forgive me, I must run. need to catch the 11:00am shuttle to the Moon....
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    DCA stands for Disney Construction Area. All the Cast Members are themed with hard hats and steel toed boots.

  9. #84

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by monotonehell View Post
    Forgive me, I must run. need to catch the 11:00am shuttle to the Moon....
    Can I come too? From space, it's only a few minutes to travel from Australia to Arizona!

    I can see why you'd want something that would not need to be changed in 10 years, perhaps someone can come to the U.S. schools to explain to our students who Jules Verne is? The kids at my school won't know. We don't have the nice educational budgets to be found in other countries, such as France.

  10. #85

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    The white color scheme was a political move by a Disneyland President who wanted to appease Passholders instead of do the right thing, and luckily he is no longer with the company.
    Spoken like a true Eisner devotee.

    Your creatively-superior paint scheme did nothing for the park-going public. If it WAS a success, it would have been repainted and refurbished because that's what people would have wanted.

    The problem is that New Tomorrowland project of 1998 was so underfunded and cheaply done and that resonated with the public so much that it caused outrage by fans, a SaveDisney.com campaign to "Save Tomorrowland", and eventually, a quiet remodel. Less than 10 years after Tomorrowland '98 opened, the project is fading quietly into Yesterland. Quietly because the company isn't willing to admit the failure of the remodel that couldn't even last 10 years. Even the first incarnation of the land lasted 12 years - and Walt Disney himself wasn't even satisfied with it. Tomorrowland '98 didn't even last two years before its centerpiece attraction was closed. Tomorrowland '98 didn't even last 7 years before it lost its paint scheme. Seems like Tomorrowland '98 is pretty dead to me. But successful? You bet!

    Yes, thank goodness Matt Ouimet is no longer with the Company. Thank goodness the man who championed the 50th Anniversary refurbishment projects (Walt Disney's Enchanted Tiki Room, Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion, Main Street repainting, Castle repainting, etc) and who championed projects like the Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage is gone from the Walt Disney Company.

    Ouimet certainly hurt the company. If only Paul Pressler would come back and make more locations stores and slash budgets on park maitenance.

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  11. #86

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by cindersgirl View Post
    Can I come too? From space, it's only a few minutes to travel from Australia to Arizona!

    I can see why you'd want something that would not need to be changed in 10 years, perhaps someone can come to the U.S. schools to explain to our students who Jules Verne is? The kids at my school won't know. We don't have the nice educational budgets to be found in other countries, such as France.
    Yes, that's right, you Americans blame the French for everything... French Fries are making our kids fat...

    I wish it were only a minutes to AZ. Maybe you could go visit my friend in Phoenix? He's feeling a bit lonely right now.
    Disney FAQ#275: What is DCA?
    DCA stands for Disney Construction Area. All the Cast Members are themed with hard hats and steel toed boots.

  12. #87

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    Re: 'Tomorrowland' is the Past; 'Todayland' is the Present and Future

    Quote Originally Posted by monotonehell View Post
    Yes, that's right, you Americans blame the French for everything... French Fries are making our kids fat...

    I wish it were only a minutes to AZ. Maybe you could go visit my friend in Phoenix? He's feeling a bit lonely right now.
    Now, now. I'm not blaming the French, I'm merely saying the kids at the school I work at are not going to know who Jules Verne is. We struggle with the kids trying to get them literate. I say this because the AIMS test results came out yesterday for our State. My school did fairly well, but that's because we have an intensive reading program. Most of the students come from Mexico, and English is a very difficult language to learn if you weren't brought up with it.

    That's why I have this big push to provide kids with some new ways to get kids to understand there's a reason why they need to understand how to read, comprehend what they are reading, writing well, as well as the uses of math in daily life. They don't understand why they need it, as many of these children come from parents who don't understand a lot of it themselves. They don't get the kind of role models they need at home, and a lot of parents have no clue that some of the things they do impact their children's learning.

    I'll give one example: one parent got hostile with our school's secretary and principal (to the point a few of the male teachers came to their aid in case things got violent) because the parent couldn't understand why they couldn't have their child pulled out of class while the child was taking their AIMS test. Forget the fact that this test is federally mandated for children to take (and pass) or they don't graduate high school. Clueless.

    There needs to be more positive roll models for the kids to see, even if it's in the form of attractions to promote reading classic books (Tom Sawyer Island), learn about the history of the US (Lincoln), or learning about some of the latest breakthroughs in science, and where these breakthroughs are headed(ATIS, Carousel of Progress, subs).

    That's what made the pre-Eisner Disneyland so great. That's what was part of the charm of going there when I was young. Now it's just there to entertain, with very little, if any, information or inspiration.

    I'll get off my soapbox now.

    Off topic: I'm sorry your friend is lonely right now. He's also probably pretty warm, it was around 113 degrees today.

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