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  1. #151

    • Pilot EdForceOne
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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Wow.. you can't even read things without bias. The very article you posted was pointed out how its not applicable by the documents very own statement of scope IN THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE and you still can't comprehend it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post
    The document in question was posted on the Department of Transporation Government website to answer the question about segway access.
    FOR TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITIES. You know.. where the DOT has say?

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post
    THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT REQUIRES ITS OWN AGENCIES TO COMPLY WITH AND ALLOW ITS USAGE who do you think would win that argument?
    Uhh.. and where in that document do you see it stating how Federal agencies should act? Its a published interpretation of the law by the DOT as it applies to entities the DOT helps govern. Nothing to do with Federal 'agencies' of which there are none in the transportation business (only subsidized entities like Amtrak).

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post
    And yes Disney is a transporation entity what do you call rides?


    That is by far the funniest thing I've read on this site ever. Keep dreaming.. keep dreaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post
    It also states that the private sector may choose whether or not to provide access for segways for NON disabled persons but that they MUST provide access for disabled persons who use it as a mobility device. it even gives the example that I quoted, a company can deny an animal to be allowed to enter but IT CANNOT allow a service animal to enter.
    Beyond the inapplicability of the document to the subjet matter (Disney) you fail to comprehend the actual document to start with. It's not LAW - it's a position and interpretation statement by the DOT who do not dictate the law in this matter. It's their interpretation of how the ADA laws apply to their realm. The only person who determines the final say is a JUDGE as they are the ones who decide the final interpretation of the (mostly broad) ADA requirements. This is a POSITION statement and guidelines, not a LAW. Want the law, read the ADA - interpret the law, see a judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post
    This document was posted on the www.FTA.dot.gov website to do just that answer any and all questions about the usage of segways by disabled.
    Wrong again.. it was posted to answer questions for TRANSPORTATION authorities.

    This thread needs to be closed - the OP obviously is hell bent on grasping to anything to make up their position.
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  2. #152

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Quote Originally Posted by gibbage View Post
    Im guessing 99% of people who post here lack the "vision" GM does. Or they just have common sense.
    Or, like me, they fear the new and unknown.

  3. #153

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Ask yourself this:

    Would Walt Want disabled people in his park?




    too far?
    St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

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  4. #154

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post

    PLEASE try and get some facts about what you are commenting on before you are willing to make claims like IT CAN KILL A CHILD and before you are ready to limit the freedoms of others
    And here in a nutshell is what your whole argument is about: "limit the freedom of others". What about the rest of OUR freedoms NOT to have to deal with the possible problems of the segway of someone who "does not want to look disabled, so does not like using a wheelchair." With all due respect, You have ranted on for 12 pages and have discarded every single post that states anything against your point of view, stating we are fearful of the future and discriminating against the disabled...You have made it very clear from the outset what your mindset is and you will NOT accept any other answer other than that which agrees with your own. You say I made it personal earlier in the thread, NO, you did by talking about disabilities, which both my husband and I have. So it is a personal issue with me. The fact of the matter is and this is as plain as I can be: Putting more moving vehicles with wheels used by those of unknown training backgrounds is dangerous in Disneyland. As I said before, you are going to HAVE to come to terms with your disability and get over your anger about it.
    Again, Take it to your Congressman, that is where your debate should be. You are simply beating a dead horse by repeating your same post over and over again...
    Enough is enough! How long do you want to keep hearing the same arguments? I guess you will continue to post until this becomes the thread you wanted it to be, a group of people of like mind who believe as you do and you have chased away all the debate and you can all discuss amongst yourselves how great it would be with no room for opposing views. You may be an audience of one, but what the heck, people talk to themselves all the time.
    Actually , I do believe there are others who share your conviction, you need to rally them to politic for the Segway with the Congressmen/women, as well as the makers of Segway, but, as someone mentioned, Segway is NOT a medical device as it is used by ALL people and never could be approved as a medical device, unless Segway makers want to limit their product to the disabled which I am sure they are not wont to do. That would take away a huge amount of their income. I suppose they could design a version which is disabled only use and try to get that licensed, but as of now, it is still a Segway and EVERYONE can use one. As another poster so eloquently put it, if you allow the disabled to use them, then you cannot discriminate with an item that is universally available. That would be a logistical nightmare in DL or WDW! THAT I cannot see in the Parks ever!
    It is your right here to discuss this topic and state your opinions passionately and I wish you the best with your crusade. Your limited ability to *see* the opposing POV as well as your faulty "research" information that you present makes me question your ability to think through this without being emotionally charged. You seem not to hear or CARE what others are saying to you in answer to your ideas. You just state that it is what you expected from most of the posters here. That is a very cynical POV and one that won't gain you any support for your crusade if you continue to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You MUST be able to see and hear opposing POV's with an open mind and understand it is not FEAR that keeps us from wanting the disabled to use Segways, but a sense of safety in the Parks. Everyone should enjoy the Parks and not at the expense of possible injury by a split second malfunction or poor decision by the operator. One incident would be all it takes to shut down it's use forever. And I assure you, there WILL be more than one incident if they allow Segway use in the Park. There are already accidents with strollers, whellchairs and ECVs. Why add another possible problem to the mix?
    I wish you the best with your disability, you have my sincere well wishes for better health and a better future. It is what I wish for all of US with disabilities. We need all the help we can get from the powers that be...However...Segways are not the be all, end all for the disabled in Disneyland!
    And by the way, I have seen a number of angry disabled people in chairs or on ECVs who are frustrated "ram" their way through crowds and expect the crowds to part like the red sea for them, just because they are in a wheelchair...What happens with the angry segway user who cannot get through the crowd, will they just lean on it and move people out of the way? It happens with wheelchairs and ECVs, it WOULD happen with Segways and they could run over a whole lot of guests with one of those things. NOT that everyone would act like that, but you WILL get someone who might...human nature being what it is...the disabled need to learn to go with the flow of Disneyland traffic movement as well. And I speak from a disabled persons POV, I AM informed!

    Oh yes, you wanted to address the issue of Disneyland "denying" the use of segways by the disabled, but offering tours? Disneyland has every right to offer a segway tour to those who wish to try it. It is an opportunity for some who are curious about it to try it out, when the park is closed!!! And to make a few bucks off of it as well, Disney makes money, oh well....They do it because they can..they have a perfect right to do so on their property!
    Notice how the tour is not operating during Park hours, there IS a reason for this, LIABILITY!!!!!! Get it now????? They do not allow them in their parks during operating hours due to LIABILITY factors, LOOK IT UP!!!!!!! The word: Liability. They do not wish to be sued....There is your answer as to why Disney is offering the tours. The way you state it makes it sound like Disney is going out of their way to NOT to offer Segway use for the disabled, but to offer Segway tours. The machine is not approved as a disabled vehicle. PERIOD! That is why Disney does not want them in the Park during operating hours. Someone could get hurt, plain and simple, argue all you want about the injuries from ECV's and wheelchairs and I still will counter you with: Segways are not approved for medical use! Wheelchairs and ECV's are and it is up to the operator to use it correctly and the consideration of all to make room for these approved vehicles. Your argument is a sieve and does not hold water.
    Best wishes,
    Susabelle
    Last edited by Susabelle; 07-26-2007 at 06:35 AM.

  5. #155

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnn in Wndrlnd View Post
    First, I would like to say that I know the owner of a Segway rental store that does Segway tours in my home town. I find myself, undoubtedly influenced by supporting my friend, very supportive of Segway use. I also have extensive experience working with severally and minimally handicapped adults. This is in addition to "babysitting" (for lack of better word, not quite as intensive as caregiving, only with her a few hours at a time) once in awhile for a woman a bit older then me, who is severly mentally and physically handicapped. I have a lot of sympathy and empathy for this cause in light of my safety concerns.

    I would very much like to hear how you balance the two things I reference above. The issue that you state proper training will alleviate our concerns vs. the fact that the Segway representative broke marble paneling in the SF building.
    GothicManor,

    I am disappointed you have chosen not to answer a questions which calls attention to an inconsistancy in your arguement that needs attention.

    I nicely expressed to you how I am sympathetic to your viewpoints, but that I needed this to be cleared up for me to consider supporting your cause.

    You have ignored my question and left me with the only assumption I can make; which is that you don't have a good explanation, and you cannot admit that.

    I would still be very interested in hearing your response.
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  6. #156

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post
    I have to do that too, as I stated earlier the segway as an aid to disabled people is only for those who's symptoms both allow it and are benefited by it.

    I cant ride alot of attractions either, sadly I sometimes ask for permission to see the queue parts of Indy, space mtn, star tours and then exit before the ride starts just so I can experience something of these attractions.

    Which brings up another point I dont understand why on Indy for example since the vehicles movements are controlled by a onboard computer program why cant they have one vehicle that does not move around on its platform so violently or not at all so ALL guests including disabled, senior citizens and young children can ALSO ride the ride too? honestly I cant think of any reason that this wont work....

    oh and Mission Space kills people, in an effort to have the wildest new thrill ride i think amuesment parks go to far and many times subject their guests to forces way beyond what shuttle astronauts have to cope with.

    There are damages that occur to the body and especially the brain by excessive G forces and especially sudden stops causing minor concussions as the brain slams into the interior of the skull keep in mind it floats around in there and when the skull is suddenly and forcefully moved the brain bounces around in the skull causing minor damage that might not be readily apparent tho in some causes fatal

    I think its scary to think of families with kids on some rides causing tiny amounts of brain damage each time they ride! all for what? Ironically the best and most enduring rides have been the Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the caribbean....which dont have dangerous thrills, I guess in the end its simply a matter of a lack of imagination .... I personnaly would like to see a realistic and futuristic space travel attraction similar to how the pirates works only with alien worlds, aliens, robots, and space vehicles.... Now Imagineer Disney! :-)
    Are you for real? They are not going to change every little detail of their parks because you say it would be better for everyone! They would have to remaster and refurb each and every ride to accomodate every disabled person's needs. It is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! There are some things you are NOT going to be able to do, whether at Disney or in life, Get over it! Learn to live as best you can and enjoy the most you can within your disability. Every other disabled person goes through this and they learn to live with it! The world is not going to change to accomodate YOU , you have to learn to navigate the world in a new way. I AM SORRY, but it is the truth. As a disabled person, I am doing it right now myself and IT SUCKS, BUT I HAVE TO to get the most out of life I can. And yes, there are many things I am not going to be able to do. Oh well. Boo Hoo. I will do something else that I can do. I have had enough. You are beginning to sound extremely irrational and hyper focused on one issue that only the governing body can change. Good luck!
    susabelle

  7. #157

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    One of the main issues that could derail the Segways in the Park movement is that when you wreck on one, you wreck really hard.

    A Segway is designed for terrain that doesn't include curbs or steps. I once saw a Segway that went off a curb in Dijon, France(they have a Segway tour). The right wheel went off the curb while the left one stayed on. At that point the rider tried to quickly pull back which caused the Segway to go crazy, spin its wheels and crash the rider into a parked car. The car's door was wrecked and the rider had a big rasberry on his leg.

    Another wreck that I've personally seen happened to my sister in law's grandfather. He owns a Segway and simply lost his balance and it neatly spilled him into the street, putting a big gash on his head.

    Granted these types of wrecks are rare but when someone falls from a standing position that's raised several inches from the ground they are going to get hurt, especially if they are disabled and can't brace themselves for the fall. Think about it this way, if you fall out if a chair, you're not going to get as hurt as if falling off the same chair while standing on it.

  8. #158

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    I have now read this entire thread. The opinions contained in the posts by the OP are simply irrational: I can find no connection with reality. Nor has the OP made any compelling arguments (far from it!) to support the claims made -- let alone refute the strong evidence to the contrary.

    I would easily say that the posts themselves are nothing short of trollish. They seem to be nothing more than an attempt to incite and inflame. Not only that, but the posts contain a severe lack of understanding of nearly every facet of the situation at hand, yet the OP continues to fire them off. In fact, none of the posts by the OP seem to address points raised by other MC members, except in the most oblique manner.

    In short, the OP has wasted my time; I'm sure several other members of the MiceChat community feel the same way. This person's posts do not in any way contribute positively to the MiceChat community, and in my opinion are very much a negative force here.

  9. #159

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    I would say it is time to close this thread, is it not? It is going round and round, not unlike King Arthur's Carousel. I agree, it does sound rather trollish and I admit, I bit, but because I am disabled as is my husband, I felt it was a personal issue to address. I think now any more posts would only continue to incite. Many of the OP's posts seemed to be down right trolling for a response, IMHO. Mods, what do you think? I agree with the above poster, it DOES sound like a bit of trolling...
    Time to say buh,bye!
    susabelle
    Last edited by Susabelle; 07-26-2007 at 06:42 AM.

  10. #160

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Quote Originally Posted by KDR View Post
    I have now read this entire thread. The opinions contained in the posts by the OP are simply irrational: I can find no connection with reality. Nor has the OP made any compelling arguments (far from it!) to support the claims made -- let alone refute the strong evidence to the contrary.

    I would easily say that the posts themselves are nothing short of trollish. They seem to be nothing more than an attempt to incite and inflame. Not only that, but the posts contain a severe lack of understanding of nearly every facet of the situation at hand, yet the OP continues to fire them off. In fact, none of the posts by the OP seem to address points raised by other MC members, except in the most oblique manner.

    In short, the OP has wasted my time; I'm sure several other members of the MiceChat community feel the same way. This person's posts do not in any way contribute positively to the MiceChat community, and in my opinion are very much a negative force here.
    Umm, what's you point. That has a bit of a prosecutor, judge, and jury ring to it.

    The OP has a disability that she feels is helped by the use of Segway and feels very passionately about that and advances arguments that sometimes lack balance and tends to ignore the arguments presented by others.

    That hardly justifies a statement like:

    "This person's posts do not in any way contribute positively to the MiceChat community, and in my opinion are very much a negative force here."

    She raises a lot of consciousness about the issue even if she drew questionable conclusions about the issues involved.

    It's not clear if you comment is advocating censorship or worse, but it seems like an excessive and inappropriate reaction to someone just because of popular disagreement.

    Enough Meta-argument for me ...

  11. #161

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    I would like to see what GM has to say to the last round of posts before we close the issue.

    But, since they seem to have run away, what else can be done?

  12. #162

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Quote Originally Posted by Susabelle View Post
    I would say it is time to close this thread, is it not? It is going round and round, not unlike King Arthur's Carousel. I agree, it does sound rather trollish and I admit, I bit, but because I am disabled as is my husband, I felt it was a personal issue to address. I think now any more posts would only continue to incite. Many of the OP's posts seemed to be down right trolling for a response, IMHO. Mods, what do you think? I agree with the above poster.
    Time to say buh,bye!
    susabelle
    We here at MiceChat try to not "over moderate" the site as much as possible. We value the opinions and ideas of all of our members, and are glad to give the members an open forum in which to share their ideas and opinions. We don't just arbitrarily close a thread because the thread seems to be going in circles, because members don't agree with the thread starter or other members, or at the request of someone other than the thread starter, when no actual rules have been broken or other violations have occured other than potential "trollish" like behavior (which in this case, is borderline and open to interpretation).

    The team will continue to monitor all threads on the site, and if the team determines action needs to be taken then we will take it.

    In the mean time, if you don't agree with the TS or if you think this subject has been beaten to death with no resolution, simply... stop posting here. If no one posts... the thread will quietly pass away...




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  13. #163

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    This whole thing reminds me of GOB from Arrested Development


  14. #164

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffYardDog View Post
    Umm, what's you point. That has a bit of a prosecutor, judge, and jury ring to it.

    The OP has a disability that she feels is helped by the use of Segway and feels very passionately about that and advances arguments that sometimes lack balance and tends to ignore the arguments presented by others.

    That hardly justifies a statement like:

    "This person's posts do not in any way contribute positively to the MiceChat community, and in my opinion are very much a negative force here."

    She raises a lot of consciousness about the issue even if she drew questionable conclusions about the issues involved.

    It's not clear if you comment is advocating censorship or worse, but it seems like an excessive and inappropriate reaction to someone just because of popular disagreement.

    Enough Meta-argument for me ...
    Just like the OP, I'm entitled to my own opinion, aren't I?

    That said, I've already received positive (though private) commentary on my post.

    It has nothing to do with popular disagreement. If the OP was actually making posts that addressed points raised and actually making rational (if unpopular) points regarding her position, I would not have posted what I did.

    However, other MiceChat members have raised some very pertinent points (why yes, someone did die from a 5mph fall off of a Segway; yes, people have been injured) that have been either continually ignored or dismissed in the posts made by the OP. I can't see anything that tells me the OP has actually taken any of the information provided here and assimilated it into her point of view. The posts do not even contain any indication that the OP understands the points that have been raised. Rather, I get the impression that the OP is not here to contribute or participate, but to publish posts that push an agenda -- and something as trivial as facts are not going to stand in the way of that.

  15. #165

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    Re: Disney offers Expensive Segway tours of park but Denies Disabled Segway users!

    Quote Originally Posted by KDR View Post
    Just like the OP, I'm entitled to my own opinion, aren't I?

    That said, I've already received positive (though private) commentary on my post.

    It has nothing to do with popular disagreement. If the OP was actually making posts that addressed points raised and actually making rational (if unpopular) points regarding her position, I would not have posted what I did.

    However, other MiceChat members have raised some very pertinent points (why yes, someone did die from a 5mph fall off of a Segway; yes, people have been injured) that have been either continually ignored or dismissed in the posts made by the OP. I can't see anything that tells me the OP has actually taken any of the information provided here and assimilated it into her point of view. The posts do not even contain any indication that the OP understands the points that have been raised. Rather, I get the impression that the OP is not here to contribute or participate, but to publish posts that push an agenda -- and something as trivial as facts are not going to stand in the way of that.
    And I'm entitled to my opinion about your opinion about her opinion ...

    Good for your positive feedback. Even I occasionally get some. Talk about low standards ...

    So she was stubborn in pursuing and presenting her Point of view and tended to ignore the POV and points of people opposing hers. That's not exactly unprecedented on Micechat - well, at least in my Micechat. Bizarro Micechat may be different.

    What I found outrageous was the condemnation that you applied to that situation:

    "This person's posts do not in any way contribute positively to the MiceChat community, and in my opinion are very much a negative force here."

    Seems unduly harsh. Did she insult anyone ? Did she condemn groups of people ? The 'crime' seems to be that she was persistent and single-minded and maybe even somewhat annoying. I can think of a lot of regular posters that could be convicted of that but I surely wouldn't say what you said about her. And I have a ready solution to their offense. I ignore them and go elsewhere.

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