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  1. #46

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    I enjoyed the photo from the air, thank you.

    Also one of the reasons DCA isn't open as long as Disneyland is exit capacity issues, the trams cant handle both parks closing at once.
    That is just not true. They hardly are using a 1/4 of the possible capacity based on the design. They don't even own enough trams to use 3/4 of the maximum capacity. For the Mickey & Friends structure the tram stop is built at both ends with four separate loading/unloading areas. Each can be used as both a loading/unloading stop simultaneously if necessary which is rarely the case since at peak times guests are usually coming or going, but not both.

    Presently, Disney primarily uses one spot for loading /unloading at the structure and over at the resort they typically use again only two spots, but only for one function load or unload, in each location. During busier departure periods they will load trams going back to the structure on a second spot, opposite the most frequently used one.

    DCA's hours are based on demand, not on parking tram capacity. Both parks could operate the same hours without issue. Another fact that supports my argument is the fact that guests don't all leave at the same time. More will leave at a period of time like at the end of a show or parade, but not everyone departs. When a park hits the posted closing time usually most guests have already gone.

    The longest I have ever had to wait was for two trams to pass before I could board. I'd guess it was less than 5 minutes.

    Finally, Disney should focus the efforts on building out California Adventure and on new attractions in Disneyland before it attempts a third park. The need is not there yet.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfparkmanager
    I enjoyed the photo from the air, thank you.



    That is just not true. They hardly are using a 1/4 of the possible capacity based on the design. They don't even own enough trams to use 3/4 of the maximum capacity. For the Mickey & Friends structure the tram stop is built at both ends with four separate loading/unloading areas. Each can be used as both a loading/unloading stop simultaneously if necessary which is rarely the case since at peak times guests are usually coming or going, but not both.

    Presently, Disney primarily uses one spot for loading /unloading at the structure and over at the resort they typically use again only two spots, but only for one function load or unload, in each location. During busier departure periods they will load trams going back to the structure on a second spot, opposite the most frequently used one.

    DCA's hours are based on demand, not on parking tram capacity. Both parks could operate the same hours without issue. Another fact that supports my argument is the fact that guests don't all leave at the same time. More will leave at a period of time like at the end of a show or parade, but not everyone departs. When a park hits the posted closing time usually most guests have already gone.

    The longest I have ever had to wait was for two trams to pass before I could board. I'd guess it was less than 5 minutes.

    Finally, Disney should focus the efforts on building out California Adventure and on new attractions in Disneyland before it attempts a third park. The need is not there yet.
    that is not what I've heard from my sources, I've heard that when they planned the second park they determined the park closing times would have to be at least 30min apart because of tram capacity issues, I would say in general this source is pretty good considering that my source told me a day ahead of time when the construction walls would go up on Monsters Inc and there they are the day after (this source has also been accurate on several other things that's just the most recent example)

    and yes I agree that Disney should keep efforts on building out California adventure, but expanding the resort is a seperate issues and it is best for them to have infulstructure ready to support a third park by the time they build it so that hte third park can be properly funded and integrated, unlike how they managed to do DCA

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jspider
    that is not what I've heard from my sources, I've heard that when they planned the second park they determined the park closing times would have to be at least 30min apart because of tram capacity issues, I would say in general this source is pretty good considering that my source told me a day ahead of time when the construction walls would go up on Monsters Inc and there they are the day after (this source has also been accurate on several other things that's just the most recent example)
    I don't have a source and you don't need one to see that they're not operating at the maximum capacity for shuttling the folks between the parking lots and the park entrance. I can say from my own personal experience that the longer your open (typically busier days) the less departure rush you see. You tend to see people leave over a longer period of time. On a shorter day, 10 am to 6 pm for example, you'll see more people departing at one time because people tend to stay until you close. Sometimes the slower days present the biggest challenges since you're not staffed to handle a rush.

    It is possible that they don't have enough trams which I mention which may prevent them from closing both parks at the same time. Yet, on the slower days when it is more likely that both parks would close at the same time Disney has more than enough tram capacity. On the busier days the longer operating day really eliminates the possibility of a jam, because guest departures tend to spread out.

    The potential disaster they must avoid in scheduling is not with park closing hours, but with two major entertainment events ending at the same time. For example, Electrical Parade ending at the same time as the Fireworks show.


    and yes I agree that Disney should keep efforts on building out California adventure, but expanding the resort is a seperate issues and it is best for them to have infulstructure ready to support a third park by the time they build it so that hte third park can be properly funded and integrated, unlike how they managed to do DCA
    I completely disagree with your comment with regards to DCA. I think the opening and handling of DCA has been perfect and beyond what is reasonable to expect. If anything Disney was overly accomodating to build out a few attractions to quell a questionable perception that the park was really lacking something it needed. After the fact, the usage of attractions like Millionare and Bugs Life area make me question whether or not there really was an immediate need for these.

    The infrastructure needs to be in place when the third park opens, no sooner. Of course, advance planning should be done so that projects align with the long term goals of the resort.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfparkmanager
    I don't have a source and you don't need one to see that they're not operating at the maximum capacity for shuttling the folks between the parking lots and the park entrance. I can say from my own personal experience that the longer your open (typically busier days) the less departure rush you see. You tend to see people leave over a longer period of time. On a shorter day, 10 am to 6 pm for example, you'll see more people departing at one time because people tend to stay until you close. Sometimes the slower days present the biggest challenges since you're not staffed to handle a rush.

    It is possible that they don't have enough trams which I mention which may prevent them from closing both parks at the same time. Yet, on the slower days when it is more likely that both parks would close at the same time Disney has more than enough tram capacity. On the busier days the longer operating day really eliminates the possibility of a jam, because guest departures tend to spread out.

    The potential disaster they must avoid in scheduling is not with park closing hours, but with two major entertainment events ending at the same time. For example, Electrical Parade ending at the same time as the Fireworks show.




    I completely disagree with your comment with regards to DCA. I think the opening and handling of DCA has been perfect and beyond what is reasonable to expect. If anything Disney was overly accomodating to build out a few attractions to quell a questionable perception that the park was really lacking something it needed. After the fact, the usage of attractions like Millionare and Bugs Life area make me question whether or not there really was an immediate need for these.

    The infrastructure needs to be in place when the third park opens, no sooner. Of course, advance planning should be done so that projects align with the long term goals of the resort.
    I'm simply saying what my source has said and that is the reason that was given for DCA's operational schedule at least that is what they say in the meetings



    now as far as infulstructure goes, I'm recommending land that they buy out as well as getting hotels ready (something not directly related to third gate construction but resort growht as a whole, which is something Disney will be working towards anyways)

    making strategic land purchases is key to being able to pay for expansion and having a wide variety of ways of entering and getting around the resort is another thing that is key

    if you phase in expansion and growth things tend to work out better

    and I'm not saying they should do everything at once, obviously the parking garages and monerail rerouting would be something to do while the third gate is also under construction, though if I'm not mistaken the DLR parking structure was already open BEFORE DCA was under construction (hence you phase it in)

    you need to concentraint on DCA yes but you also need to look towards the future and have a long term stratagy in place for what hotels you need to own and ones you don't

    DCA's construction and the rebuild of the resort district went pretty well but at what cost? DCA had several flaws in the basic attraction lineup as well as being prepared for a lagoon show and everything else, perhpas if DTD and everything were already finished DCA would've had better focas

  5. #50

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    As long as we're dreaming about a 3rd gate.....

    Can someone host a 1 meg JPG for me if I email it to you? My dream DLR 2015.... Probably about $5 billion, but WOW! Private message me if you can host my file.

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshimel
    As long as we're dreaming about a 3rd gate.....

    Can someone host a 1 meg JPG for me if I email it to you? My dream DLR 2015.... Probably about $5 billion, but WOW! Private message me if you can host my file.
    have you tried opening a photobucket account? (just curious)

  7. #52

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    Your ideas will be forwarded

  8. #53

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    MiceMan was kind enough to host my map of my dream DLR-2015.

    So, here we go:

    http://kidaftersunset.smugmug.com/gallery/439332


    Expand DTD north as planned, and add a fairly small DLH/DTD parking garage just North of DLH.

    Add another Moderate Priced resort (4th resort hotel) in the parking lot behind Paradise Pier, and another small parking garage for the new resort, PPH and GCH self-service.

    This woud all be complete late 2006/very early 2007 along with the opening of subs and something on PM tracks.

    2008: E-Ticket and D-ticket in Timon as a DCA expansion.

    2009: DCA gets new land with 3 or 4 C/D type attractions. 2010 we get the 6th and final (for a while) E-Ticket for DCA.

    2010: Major work starts on rerouting Harbor and katella around the resort.

    The intersection of Harbor and Katella is moved a block West and South. Harbor moves to Clemintine and Katella moves through the Strawberry patch and south of the Convention Center.

    I actually screwed up my map of where Harbor goes, but I'd already flattened it and couldn't undo. Harbor would go East of the new garage (under overpasses connecting the new garage then back to it's current course north of here I have the 6th hotel marked. (So pretend that the pink line that goes East/West between 3rd gate and 6th hotel/garage is actually north of the 6th hotel/garage..... even with Space Mt instead of Hyperion entrance)

    So....
    Going south on Harbor, Harbor bends left at Space Mountain, goes a bit over a quarter of a mile east to Clemintine where it bends back south. It passes west of, and has access to, the new parking garage. It continues South about a half mile where an overpasses lets you onto east-bound Katella without a light, or if you want south-bound Harbor or east-bound Katella, you continue south into the strawberry patch...

    West bound Katella goes up and over and merges in on the left of south bound Harbor.

    When we reach the back of the strawberry patch, Katella/Harbor turns west and travels 1/4 mile back to the the old Harbor route. Here the roads divide again, with Katella continuing now on the south side of the convention center. Past the convention center, it turns back north and resumes its old course.

    The point is to reroute the major roadways out from between the 2nd and 3rd gates. We can connect all the garages and parks and hotels and even the convention center and its hotels with trams and monorail(s) without ever having to cross over or under a real major roadway.

    This also requires major land purchases.....

    But, we open up HUGE chunks of now-connected land for a 3nd gate.... Even if they use a portion of this land for water park and mini-golf, there is still plenty of room for an awesome 3rd gate...

    The 3rd gate is isolated from neighborhoods a bit by Harbor/Katella being a buffer at the back of the strawberry patch. Local traffic is much eased by having overpasses instead of stop lights and slow moving tourists in crosswalks. The convention center feels much more "a part of" the resort.

    Okay, back on plan.

    2010-2012... major roadwork paid for by the city of Anaheim. Major demolition inside the new resort zone.

    2012: Construction of 3rd gate starts.

    2015: 3rd gate, 5th hotel, 2nd major garage open

    2015-2025, 3rd gate grows and 6th hotel is added as needed for demand.




    Okay, rip the plans apart.....
    Last edited by dshimel; 03-17-2005 at 09:30 AM.

  9. #54

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    Dshimel- we have fiercly debated a lot of subjects but this plan is really pretty awesome. I like how you lay out a solid timeline, I suspect Disney managment have begun formulating something similar, or at least I would hope they have.

    As far as the road ways are concerned, I always kind of hoped that the city and Disneyland could share the exspense of actually burying the roads, build tunnels and or raise them up somehow, it would be pretty sweet if the roads were 20-40 feet up and you looked into DCA as you drove by. These suggestions have less chance of seeing the light of day then your suggestion of rerouting traffic.

    Anywho- looks good bud!-Tom







  10. #55

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    I like your ideas, although they don't seem particularly practical. I think they should just have Harbor and Katella have tunnels under what you are proposing, and then just have exits that head right into parking garages that include a couple underground levels (they would feed into your large parking structure as well as a smaller one that the 5th hotel would necessitate). This would decrease any annoyances for locals, since the roads would still be where they always were, and it would allow Disney to expand right on top of the roads. Any problems that could occur due to evacuations if there were problems in the tunnels could be easily alleviated--the part of Katella that would go under your blue property for the 3rd gate, you could just have the water park and miniature golf north of the tunnel, with exits from the tunnel feeding right into the ticket booths for the water park, golf, and 3rd park (i.e. a 2nd Esplanade). For Harbor, have escape tunnels leading to the west in the section below the 3rd gate, and just have the parking garage for the new 5th hotel line the east side of Harbor under the new hotel, with exits there. Of course expand the monorail into a loop with a stop at the 4th resort with access to Paradise Pier (a new, large 2nd entrance), a stop at the 2nd esplanade, with access to the 5th resort, mini golf, water park, and 3rd gate, and a stop at the 6th hotel, with direct access to the original esplanade, as well (it would be a very quick walk). This would create a 5-station monorail system, very similar to WDW's Magic Kingdom loop. Transport from the 2nd Mickey and Friends Parking Garage would involve a moving walkway to the 6th Resort's monorail station, providing direct access to all other stations. I am envisioning a new monorail system similar to what Las Vegas now has, capable of transporting a lot of people quickly.
    -Kyle, Member of the DCA Lovers Alliance
    I'M GOING TO YALE!!!!!!!


  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrateslife4me84
    I like your ideas, although they don't seem particularly practical. I think they should just have Harbor and Katella have tunnels under what you are proposing,
    Hmmm.. I see tunnels as WAY, WAY less practicle than moving the roads.

    By far, the number one issue with moving the road is the business that lose street access.... that problem occurs whether you tunnel or reroute....

    But that issue is resolved by the REAL issue. Billion(s)? of dollars to buy up all the current businesses along Harbor.


    The tunnel is WAY more expensive. I'm talking about 4 overpassess at a $3-4 million each and rerouting current surface streets... couple miles of roadway at $3-4 million a mile max. What, $30 million total construction cost.

    You're talking a couple miles a tunnel at a good $40 million a mile minimum.. PLUS rerouting water, gas, sewer, power, drainage.... And you're talking a MAJOR blind intersection of two major roadways, underground.

    This study says you can't even accruatly guess the prices:
    http://www.jacobssf.com/articles/Too%20Dangerous%20To%20Guestimate.pdf#search='unde rground%20highway%20construction%20cost'

    Boston burried a 3.5 mile long road in tunnel in downtown..... Guess the cost! $6.5 BILLION... Yes, that was a much more traveled road, and many more concerns about utilities in downtown Boston, but the issues are still there.

    My guess is that burring 2 miles of Harbor and over a mile of Katell would have to cost in the hundreds of millions... 10 times the cost of rerouting.... 1/10th the cost of similar length of roadway as in Boston.

  12. #57

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    that's actualy a pretty good plan, basicaly takes some of the ideas already discusses here but focas's all the land on the parks

    the third gate deffinatly needs all the land possible though

  13. #58

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    The third gate needs all the land possible...so does anyone think the Anaheim Garden Walk land which about 19 acres even land in Disney's hands?

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeCool
    The third gate needs all the land possible...so does anyone think the Anaheim Garden Walk land which about 19 acres even land in Disney's hands?
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    Dream on kid- the world needs more dreamers! *Does Grocho Marx impression







  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeCool
    The third gate needs all the land possible...so does anyone think the Anaheim Garden Walk land which about 19 acres even land in Disney's hands?
    right now I don't think so, it seems that the city itself is dedicated to opening it as a Garden Walk (almost as dedicated as the city was to paying for Disney's expansion)

    I do think that if it fails or if Disney can simply run Downtown Disney strategicaly to MAKE Garden Walk fail then Disney "could" claim the land

    Disney's stratagy would be simple, NOT build the third gate for a while so guests arn't enticed to go through Garden walk because it doesn't lead to anywere, and they continue to exapand DTD will lead buisnesses to want to open shop in Disney's location over a competitors and if Disney's location is better then Garden Walk that will hurt Garden Walk even more

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