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  1. #1

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    Moving Forward while looking Back

    A while back I started a thread asking if Disneyland was a Museum. This explores that thought a little further. We all in some ways dwell in nostalgia, the wonderful memories of childhood. For each generation certain attractions and experiences are deemed "priceless". Losing them is hard. There are countless threads on here, some of them mine, in remembrance of things like; Mine Train, Adventures through Inner Space, People Mover, Country Bear Jamboree, Hook's Pirate Ship... and many many more. We all in some way long for them to return, either in their original form, or simply in theme and spirit as a new attraction. Thinking about this I wonder if it is possible to move forward without looking back. Is it possible to make something truly original that does not in some way resemble something from the past?... AND... If it does resemble something from the past is it really original, or is it borrowing off the memory of what was there before?

    IMO I would love to see the return of things like People Mover and Mine Train, but I'm not sure how people would receive them. Nemo is a wonderful example of this. People were distraught when the old Sub's closed. Now we have them back... in a different form... and some are even more upset! What if People Mover, or Mine Train were to have a similar fate? Would they be accepted, or dismissed as being a mere shadow of their former selves? This also deals with another argument. People want Disney to be original, to break new ground, but they long for the things they remember. Can a balance be found to please both camps?
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"


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  2. #2

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    It doesn't upset me that the subs theme is different. The first theme wasn't that great. What makes it kind of dull is the storyline just follows the movie even though the scripting is clearing stating this is a new adventure, because they made a movie together.

    the people mover was another boring ride. I don't think it will matter how they bring that one back.

    Mine train will never happen or they did kind of bring back a train to the same area already...

  3. #3

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    Ah. I am going to call this the Nostalgic Standard. The Nostalgic Standard is an unreasonably high standard (sometimes fantastically so) for an attraction that judges it not merely based on what it replaced, but upon a (perhaps) exaggerated memory of the greatness of the original. It is impossible to compare the two side by side physically, but people compare them mentally. And in their mind, the original is much better than it really was in reality.

    Reasons for reincarnating old rides:
    1) Lack of creativity to create something all new and fantastic.
    2) Lack of willingness to spend money to construct fresh. Disney recycles, a lot. Sometimes too much.

    Reasons to build all new rides:
    1) This avoids the Nostalgic Standard issue as you pointed out.
    2) This keeps the public wowed and committed to the future of Disney knowing new things are always around the corner.
    3) All the classic rides that could be constructed have not yet been constructed.
    There is potential for new ones.

    Splash Mountain and Star Tours are both examples of relatively late comers to the Classic Attractions club, and all of them replaced something else that was there before them. And they have become more classic than what was before them. I'd say the same about Thunder Mountain for the average guest, but definitely not for the micechatters .

    Then you have other rides that just tried to barely coverup what was there before them: Monsters Inc. and Rocket Rods were dismal examples of this.

    I personally think the Subs now are great. They really plussed the attraction and I love it, yada yada yada. But you are right. Even in a ride that I feel they poured their heart and money into, because it was built on top of the old subs, they took a risk and, at least marginally, failed to please the (adult) public. (I have a feeling Nemo subs will be a classic anyway because of the kids, adults be damned).

    So definitely, it's better to just outright forget about the original concept altogether and built something (almost) 100% new, if you can. (Sometimes, you can still keep physical structures though. Star Tours kept the identical queue of ATIS.)

    But in the case of something like the subs, I think they made the right choice. They just need to wait for the younger generation to grow up before they start hearing them talk at City Hall or in online forums about how much they love that classic Finding Nemo ride.

  4. #4

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    Quote Originally Posted by idreamofjeani View Post
    Splash Mountain and Star Tours are both examples of relatively late comers to the Classic Attractions club, and all of them replaced something else that was there before them. And they have become more classic than what was before them. I'd say the same about Thunder Mountain for the average guest, but definitely not for the micechatters .

    Then you have other rides that just tried to barely coverup what was there before them: Monsters Inc. and Rocket Rods were dismal examples of this.
    Splash and Critter as a whole replaced portions of Bear Country which in turn replaced a vital part of Frontierland... I keep hearing in park, and reading on here, how amazing the Indian Village was. Splash is great don't misunderstand, but what was there is sorely missed. Pooh also should have been tossed in the not so great category considering how much fun Country Bear was. As to Monsters, IMO all it did was break theme. Other then that they did the best they could with what they had... it's a huge improvement over Superstar Limo... but that's not saying much. I realize that rebuilding a classic is pointless, but building a new attraction that is inspired from the old one might be nice. I say inspiration, not carbon copy, I would still want the majority of it to be creative Disney touches. I would hope whatever is built would be able to not only live up to what it replaced, but stand on it's own as it's own attraction. In a sense BTM reminds people of Mine Train, but it stands on it's own because it is also completely different. In any event it is a very slippery slope!
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"


    "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"


  5. #5

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    Sorry. I don't mean to place values of my own on these rides, in this thread.

    I am only referring to the general public's reception of these rides:
    1) Splash is seen as its own classic ride, and rarely ever compared by guests against the Indian village. Only the diehard older fans seem to remember the Indian Village. In the approximately 15,000 or so guests (est.) that I have had conversations with in the time I have been a CM, only one person ever mentioned the Indian Village with sad fondness. The Indian Village might have been awesome, or not awesome, but regardless Splash is sooooooooo much different that it never suffered any sort of Nostalgic Standard effect.
    2) Likewise, Star Tours replaced another classic. But it was so much different, that it did not suffer the Nostalgic Standard effect.
    3) You are right about Thunder. I get more guests who remember what it replaced, and who compare the two, than I get comparing Splash vs. the Indian Village. I think I have probably met about 20 guests total. And I am not talking about Rabid fans here. Just average older guests who ask about it and then express sorrow that Thunder replaced it when I tell them. Still 20 is not very many out of 15,000 or so. :P
    Last edited by idreamofjeani; 08-25-2007 at 09:16 PM.

  6. #6

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    If they could just get all those 55'ers and 59'ers and ... to die faster then the Nostalgia effect would become less of a factor.

    Maybe they need a few more heart-stopping thrill rides to accelerate the process.

  7. #7

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    Restore and enhance Disneyland while plunging ahead with exciting new things for DCA. Perfect balance for everyone.

  8. #8

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    Quote Originally Posted by idreamofjeani View Post
    Sorry. I don't mean to place values of my own on these rides, in this thread.

    I am only referring to the general public's reception of these rides:
    1) Splash is seen as its own classic ride, and rarely ever compared by guests against the Indian village. Only the diehard older fans seem to remember the Indian Village. In the approximately 15,000 or so guests (est.) that I have had conversations with in the time I have been a CM, only one person ever mentioned the Indian Village with sad fondness. The Indian Village might have been awesome, or not awesome, but regardless Splash is sooooooooo much different that it never suffered any sort of Nostalgic Standard effect.
    Actually if anything people comment on how well it fits... and then ask why they filled it full of America Sings AA'S. That last part always made me laugh! I was never sure if it was a compliment or complaint. Indian Village was from an older generation. Most times I would get the question while working Thunder. They would ask and I would refer to Knott's, which would somewhat irritate them and then they would ask "I clearly remember Disney used to have one but can't remember where it used to be!" Which would go into full blown conversation out at Greeter.
    Quote Originally Posted by idreamofjeani View Post
    2) Likewise, Star Tours replaced another classic. But it was so much different, that it did not suffer the Nostalgic Standard effect.
    What Star Tours replaced is still VERY MUCH missed. Also I am not sure if you can classify it as classic because it is kind of cheating. They used clips from Star Wars in a motion simulator and then added a great Queue. It wasn't really creative. At least with Indy you are going through a ride and not watching Raiders of the Lost Ark playing on a screen as a theater moves. IMO Classic= original... but that is just me
    Quote Originally Posted by idreamofjeani View Post
    3) You are right about Thunder. I get more guests who remember what it replaced, and who compare the two, than I get comparing Splash vs. the Indian Village. I think I have probably met about 20 guests total. And I am not talking about Rabid fans here. Just average older guests who ask about it and then express sorrow that Thunder replaced it when I tell them. Still 20 is not very many out of 15,000 or so. :P
    The reason they compare them is probably a combination of Rainbow Ridge, the fact that they occupied the same place, and the physical similarities in the loco's.

    I am all for building a new innovative next to be nominated as a Classic attraction. I was wondering if that is possible without it in some way being compared to what it replaced... because Disney is based on nostalgia.
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"


    "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"


  9. #9

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    There is still so much room for improvement at DL. Let's start with the obvious, TL. Empty PM tracks and an empty Carousel of Progress are 2 areas that could use some help. I'd say the majority here want the PM back, and we can agree that Innoventions is a bust. Fix these first and give people a reason to go back to TL.


    This has been a Filmways presentation dahling.

  10. #10

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    After looking at all the old pictures you can't help but notice how many attractions have been removed, not replaced, simply removed. I fully believe in progress and moving forward. Even if they replace an old favorite with something that fails (Rocket Rods, IMO Pooh) at least an attempt was made. The sad part is when they close attractions and just leave them closed. Often times I wonder if they leave them closed for lack of a creative concept. If they leave them closed in hopes the public will grieve and forget. Or if they are left closed because the plans to redevelop them fell through. In any event I take comfort in the pictures from the past. Some rides I remember riding, like the Keel Boats, Motor Boats, Skyway, Tahitian Terrace. Others I never knew, like Flying Saucers, Mine Train, and the Indian Village.

    I am not a purist who believes the park should be fully restored to it's former glory. In fact I strongly believe that if some attractions were brought back they would fail given the current public expectations, standards and attitudes. I just hope Disney can strike a balance and hopefully reopen some of the closed areas, be it a brand new concept or a retheme of an old friend.
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"


    "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"


  11. #11

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    The title of this thread is perfect.

    In order for Disneyland to proceed it must bring back certain rides that it had once abandoned. Walt's magic is now gone and while there are individuals who come close to it, these individuals certainly are not the ones currently running the company.

    I think if they get some of these attractions up and running again then they can expand both parks more easily, with these older attractions serving as reminders of the underlying and subconscious magic that a Disney ride brings above and beyond the ride experience itself.

  12. #12

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    I personally think it's great that Disneyland is always changing. I don't think that things always have to be restored to bring something new into the park. I would LOVE to see new (read ORIGINAL) attractions in the park.

    If you restore the Park, to what period do you restore it to? Opening day? 1965? 1977? and do you bring back certain things? All of them? Whose opinions matter most?

    You're always gonna have people who wish for this attraction and wish for that old area.

    Yes some of the new stuff, you might not always like. But hey, We're all human and they are doing the best they can to give YOU a magic time.

    To me the magic in DLR is more about the vibe in the air. Not about some ride. I can just walk in Disneyland and "get it" I don't have a ride connection. (although I LOVE NOS)

    But maybe thats because I live far away and I don't get it that often.
    All your dreams can come true if you have the courage to pursue them. - Walt Disney


  13. #13

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffYardDog View Post
    If they could just get all those 55'ers and 59'ers and ... to die faster then the Nostalgia effect would become less of a factor.

    Maybe they need a few more heart-stopping thrill rides to accelerate the process.
    We could just walk them over to a smkoing area...it might speed up tohe process...maybe.
    -"Enjoy the rest of your stay here at Disneyland, where all of your dreams come true...well except for two of them, short lines and cheap food."

  14. #14

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    Quote Originally Posted by Junthor View Post
    I personally think it's great that Disneyland is always changing. I don't think that things always have to be restored to bring something new into the park. I would LOVE to see new (read ORIGINAL) attractions in the park.

    If you restore the Park, to what period do you restore it to? Opening day? 1965? 1977? and do you bring back certain things? All of them? Whose opinions matter most?

    You're always gonna have people who wish for this attraction and wish for that old area.

    Yes some of the new stuff, you might not always like. But hey, We're all human and they are doing the best they can to give YOU a magic time.

    To me the magic in DLR is more about the vibe in the air. Not about some ride. I can just walk in Disneyland and "get it" I don't have a ride connection. (although I LOVE NOS)

    But maybe thats because I live far away and I don't get it that often.
    That was kind of my point... to strike some sort of balance. I would love to see some old classics return, even if it isn't them, but an attraction they inspired. I just wish they would open up some of the closed areas of the park, and do something with them instead of letting them sit and rot.
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"


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  15. #15

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    Re: Moving Forward while looking Back

    [quote=idreamofjeani;2091334]
    I'd say the same about Thunder Mountain for the average guest, but definitely not for the micechatters .

    For those of us of a certain age, as much as we might enjoy Thunder Mountain, it can never replace the Mine Train with its references to all the Disney Nature's Wonderland films we watched thoughout out youth. I'm not saying better or worse, but you should know why this ride held special meaning for some of us.

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