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  1. #1

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    Smile Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    I normally do not write too many posts like this, at least not too recently, but I do feel that I have to vent on something now.

    I am becoming increasingly frustrated with people - on several of the main message boards across the internet- coming to such definitive conclusions on whether or not
    an attraction or entertainment offering is ultimately and definitively "successful" or "unsuccessful", and particularly attractions and entertainment that are only within their first few months of actual operation. For the most part, Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage comes to mind.

    It is one thing to speak for yourself and yourself only- whether you like it or not.
    The issue I have is with folks speaking as if they represent the whole of the general public and know exactly what the public feels and thinks. This goes for speaking for the whole "Disney fan community" as well.

    There has not been any definitive statements from any of the Disney "insiders" across the net on whether or not Disney itself sees the Subs as "successful" or not, from what I know. There has been no word or remark from Disney themselves either.
    Do I find, in my opinion, that it tends to be the ones who are very attached to the past and the original submarine voyage (along with Disneyland circa the 50s & the 60s) who are very critical? Sure, and I completely understand (and you might be surprised, I am one of them).
    But, when certain people speak as if they are the "final word", as if they are speaking for all of "us", that is when I have an issue. And I have seen it a lot lately.

    No doubt about it that the submarine attraction does not have a high capacity, and regardless the attraction is going to have somewhat of a lengthy queue time.
    But who is to say that an average of a 90 to 120 minute wait is "not good" and a sign of failure? Who is the final word? Who holds the "play-book" on final judgment?
    Who, or what, truly defines "success"?

    I believe Disney would be more worried, as would we, if the attraction had no one waiting to experience it all!
    I also believe that it's not practical to try to judge an attractions true and long-term success for its own sake and for the sake of the park as a whole within only its first few months of operation. It makes much more sense, to me, to try to look at this situation from a larger perspective of a year, if not longer, down the line.
    I do also wonder if we are considering the actual logistics of the attraction and thinking practically in terms of what makes this attraction unique and different to operate, and the effect it has on the park as a whole, when making "success" remarks.

    In the end, I am sick to death of people speaking for me, or the whole general public.
    It is not sensible or realistic, and I find it increasingly difficult to take those people seriously in message board discussions, and take their future remarks on boards seriously.

    I, in no way, wish to control what people think. I, in no way, want to force my personal opinions on others.

    What I do hope, and wish, is that we could all try to see the "bigger picture" more often, and more clearly...in more ways than one.
    I think we all forget that far too much...and sometimes, it worries me.
    No doubt Disney is aware of our boards, and they do read them. And no doubt many within probably do not have high opinions of us or what we think. I do feel that if we could try to approach our criticisms in a more realistic and mature manner, collectively, then Disney might actually look at us differently, and consider our opinions and thoughts on matters in a different, if even slightly more positive and pragmatic, light.


    Ok, now rip me apart.
    Last edited by tcsnwhite; 08-27-2007 at 12:11 AM.

  2. #2

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    I personally love the new subs. And I think Disney did a great job. And I hope (and suspect) that the Nemo Subs are going to be a classic ride.

    What I *can* tell you however is that from talking to many many guests at Disneyland, almost every adult that has rode the ride has (sadly) said they did not find it worth the wait, and they were not very impressed by it. This surprised me, especially because I liked it soooo much during the CM preview.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with them, but that's the reaction I have been seeing over and over again, as a Castmember. Again though, I say wait, and over time I bet you will see the love for Nemo Subs really grow! I think adults just haven't gotten over the nostalgia for the old ride, or the fact that so much of the ride is projected now.

    Would I consider the ride is a success? Absolutely, yes. But the reception by adults has been a lot colder than I hoped.
    Last edited by idreamofjeani; 08-27-2007 at 12:22 AM.

  3. #3

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    my only complaint regarding the submarine ride is this: WHY DID THEY WAIT SO LONG TO /REOPEN IT????????

  4. #4

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    I don't consider what is successful or not. But whether its quality or not. The equations are simple.

    New Disney + Pixar = Less Quality

    Old Disney - Pixar = High Quality


    It's been more than evident lately.


  5. #5

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    Is that really the case with the Nemo Subs though?

    Old Subs:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX5GULvLP9A
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r229YBdoSig

    Nemo Subs:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYvyWFdWm2o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX5GULvLP9A
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLO49BaJaMI

    Ok, the Nemo Subs videos are somewhat useless because they are too dark. You'll have to ride the actual ride to do a fair comparison.

  6. #6

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    I dislike the subs and I have little nostalgiac ties to the past attraction. I like the beginning, although it needs more "real swimming fish" instead of cartoony static ones attached to the rockwork, but once inside the showrooms, it is far too busy and small. The port holes are too small to be filling the ride with animation, especially in smaller sets.

    At the risk of sounding nostaliac, the reason the old subs worked and the beginning works, is it a slow magestic look at the ocean. There are tons of details to see and you feel as if you are in the middle of something massive. With the current showroom, you are constantly almost hitting the set and the few open spaces are filled with movement. I like the jelly fish and Im sure I'll like the angler fish once Disney accomplishes the effect, but the other scenes are too kinetic.

    Then there is the fact they are trying to pass off an elaborate darkride of the nemo film as an original attraction inspired by Finding Nemo. A lot of people would have prefered a scientific journey into liquid space with nemo cameos instead of a loose ridethrough of the film.

    Successful or not, only time will tell. I wasn't impressed, but my non-Disney geek friend did enjoy it. And while I am not impressed, I also wouldn't call it a failure by any means.

  7. #7

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    Just as a heads up, I love what folks have contributed already, but I wasn't necessarily speaking of the Nemo Subs only...my original comments are speaking to any attraction or entertainment offering.

    And it is not so much about simply the Nemo Subs, but thoughts on who or what is "success" in general, and who defines "success"?
    And how do people feel about some of the talk (and sometimes a lot of it) that can feel like some pass off as if it represents the "Disney fan community" or the general public as whole...

  8. #8

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    Success of defunct attractions seems to get tangled up with nostalgia too often. People will always look back at what they loved in their childhood and think it's better than what's there now...even if it isn't better.

    But then again words like successful and better are pretty subjective. It's all opinion basically IMO.

  9. #9

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    Quote Originally Posted by idreamofjeani View Post
    What I *can* tell you however is that from talking to many many guests at Disneyland, almost every adult that has rode the ride has (sadly) said they did not find it worth the wait, and they were not very impressed by it. This surprised me, especially because I liked it soooo much during the CM preview.
    Personally, I think this has more to do with the fact that people these days don't want to wait in line for anything anymore. I think we've all been in a supermarket when some idiot is having a cow because they have to wait behind (GASP!!) two other people. Then I think to myself, yeah, that's what happens when there are other people in the world.

    Back on topic, I think sometimes some of us might just forget to include an "IMHO" in our statements every time we post.
    Last edited by 7.17.55; 08-27-2007 at 07:34 AM.

  10. #10

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    Quote Originally Posted by 071755 View Post
    Personally, I think this has more to do with the fact that people these days don't want to wait in line for anything anymore. I think we've all been in a supermarket when some idiot is having a cow because they have to wait behind (GASP!!) two other people. Then I think to myself, yeah, that's what happens when there are other people in the world.

    Back on topic, I think sometimes some of us might just forget to include an "IMHO" in our statements every time we post.
    No. It is because many people want glorified Magic Mountain rides rather than the little elements that distinguish Disney rides from the rest. People joke about there being a loop in the subs, but trust me I think if there actually was one in there everyone would be on here saying that the Nemo Subs are the greatest ride ever.

    IMHO...

  11. #11

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    Quote Originally Posted by tcsnwhite View Post
    And how do people feel about some of the talk (and sometimes a lot of it) that can feel like some pass off as if it represents the "Disney fan community" or the general public as whole...










    I speak for myself. No one else. My opinions are just that...My opinions.


    It's easy for someone to "talk tough" through a keyboard. Half the stuff is lies and quite a bit of the rest is BS. I take them with a grain of salt.

    It's the internet...

  12. #12

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    Cool Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    Quote Originally Posted by tcsnwhite View Post

    The issue I have is with folks speaking as if they represent the whole of the general public and know exactly what the public feels and thinks.
    For some reason I keep thinking about the guy on another board stating that since he didn't need an air conditioned hotel room in Spain, I wouldn't need one at Disneyland Paris.

    I'm hoping that one day he'll tell me what my favorite color is, and I'm sure the logic will be equally sound.

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  13. #13

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    I still think it's too early to tell if the subs are successful or not.. It'll take a year or so until most people who go to Disneyland have been there.. THEN look at the lines and peoples opinions on the ride.
    All your dreams can come true if you have the courage to pursue them. - Walt Disney


  14. #14

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    Whether any one individual likes or dislikes a ride is unimportant. I've said before, that discussing the park is somewhat like studying art history. You don't study who was the best painter, sculptor, whatever, you study who and what was influencial. Sure Michaelangelo was great, but there may have been another greater painter living across the street that never showed his work, and therefor never influenced anyone.

    The originial subs were important to DL history. As to whether the new subs will be as important or influential, only time will tell.

  15. #15

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    Re: Frustration regarding what is "successful" or not

    I think more then anything MC's are afraid of this "new" attraction. Again My Opinion but I know a lot of people think back to Rocket Rods. Which boasted a 2.5hr wait for the majority of the summer... then slumped lower and lower as more and more people said "did it once not worth it". As stated by other CM's people are already stating the same feelings about Subs and the line is already reflecting that. People may be impatient but they are willing to wait for a quality attraction. Indy still hits 1hr consistently, Splash hits 1hr consistently, Space hits 1hr consistently... Pan is usually insane! So they had a long line when it opened... wow... most Guests that opening week were shocked it wasn't longer! One person asked if it was open because the line was "so short". To me that wasn't a good sign!

    I also feel that Disney not saying anything is usually a bad sign. This stems from personal experience more then anything else. If it succeeds they glorify it and ham it up! If it fails they quickly attempt to sweep it under the rug!
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