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  1. #46

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by sir clinksalot View Post
    Sheesh, when is enough, enough???

    Sheesh, you're a moderator. Just swish your wand with a "Wingardium Levi-OH-sa," lift it off its feet, then do a "Levicorpus (silent)," and flip it on its ankle.
    Sheesh, indeed!
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  2. #47

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    This is a very interesting and informantive thread.

    It's these kind of threads that has driven MiceChat to number 1 status.


    This has been a Filmways presentation dahling.

  3. #48

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    Sheesh, you're a moderator. Just swish your wand with a "Wingardium Levi-OH-sa," lift it off its feet, then do a "Levicorpus (silent)," and flip it on its ankle.
    Sheesh, indeed!
    I wish it was that easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Druggas View Post
    This is a very interesting and informantive thread.

    It's these kind of threads that has driven MiceChat to number 1 status.
    I know ... I'm just giving Mr. Darkbeer a hard time. We go way back.


  4. #49

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Let me just say, Gregg, Kristi and their ENTIRE Family are great folks.

    And why we disagree on this one issue, as a moderator here at MiceChat, I have seen Sir Clinks being very fair in his duties.

    But last I checked, the MiceChat rules still allow me to say "DCA Sucks"

    But going back to the Original Post, it is just amazing that Barry Braverman said what he said to the NYT, representing the person in charge of designing DCA, being the person from WDI in charge of the mess.
    Check out my Theme Park Photos at http://darkbeer.smugmug.com

  5. #50

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Let's do some math...

    First we need to come up with a starting number, I have seen, $1.1 Billion, $1.2 Billion and even $1.3 Billion over 10 years (above and beyond the costs of Toy Story Mania! and The Wonderful World of Color Lagoon Show, which is at least $120 million more, maybe more).

    But lets use the $1.2 Billion number, which is the most common number.

    That is $120 Million a year.

    Or over $325,000 a day!

    And lets say that 6 million guests visit DCA a year.

    That is basically $20 per person, per visit.

    And while there are a few full priced tickets sold, most folks get in on discounted tickets, starting with the free ones, comps, CM and their sign-ins. Then you have the "Pay for Disneyland, get DCA for FREE!" SoCal offer, the 2008 offer of geting "2 days free" with a purchase of a 3 day ParkHopper or longer (can be less than $28 per day), and then the AP's, which for a low example of 10 days a year for a SoCal, and 20 days for a Deluxe/Premium AP holder, that is around $20 a day on average.

    And yes, some profit is made on the food and merchandise sold in the park.

    But at the current pricing schedule, the investment will not return a profit for the first few years...

    And don't forget you still have to pay for the original cost of DCA, the upgrades since 2001, and all the daily costs including repairs, labor and electricity, plus many other expenses.
    Check out my Theme Park Photos at http://darkbeer.smugmug.com

  6. #51

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    Let me just say, Gregg, Kristi and their ENTIRE Family are great folks.

    But last I checked, the MiceChat rules still allow me to say "DCA Sucks"
    Awww, thanks for that.

    As for the rules ... well, they can change you know.


  7. #52

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    Let's do some math...

    First we need to come up with a starting number, I have seen, $1.1 Billion, $1.2 Billion and even $1.3 Billion over 10 years (above and beyond the costs of Toy Story Mania! and The Wonderful World of Color Lagoon Show, which is at least $120 million more, maybe more).

    But lets use the $1.2 Billion number, which is the most common number.

    That is $120 Million a year.

    Or over $325,000 a day!

    And lets say that 6 million guests visit DCA a year.

    That is basically $20 per person, per visit.

    And while there are a few full priced tickets sold, most folks get in on discounted tickets, starting with the free ones, comps, CM and their sign-ins. Then you have the "Pay for Disneyland, get DCA for FREE!" SoCal offer, the 2008 offer of geting "2 days free" with a purchase of a 3 day ParkHopper or longer (can be less than $28 per day), and then the AP's, which for a low example of 10 days a year for a SoCal, and 20 days for a Deluxe/Premium AP holder, that is around $20 a day on average.

    And yes, some profit is made on the food and merchandise sold in the park.

    But at the current pricing schedule, the investment will not return a profit for the first few years...

    And don't forget you still have to pay for the original cost of DCA, the upgrades since 2001, and all the daily costs including repairs, labor and electricity, plus many other expenses.
    Well, hopefully they can fix it right this time. So when its time to actually start turning a profit, they actually can turn a profit!

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  8. #53

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    That is basically $20 per person, per visit.

    And while there are a few full priced tickets sold, most folks get in on discounted tickets, starting with the free ones, comps, CM and their sign-ins. Then you have the "Pay for Disneyland, get DCA for FREE!" SoCal offer, the 2008 offer of geting "2 days free" with a purchase of a 3 day ParkHopper or longer (can be less than $28 per day), and then the AP's, which for a low example of 10 days a year for a SoCal, and 20 days for a Deluxe/Premium AP holder, that is around $20 a day on average.
    Please. Even AP'ers don't put in 20 full days at DCA, which is what is required in order to return this new investment (on top of the original one, still likely not paid off). And multi-day parkhoppers put in maybe 30% of their time in DCA. At most (on average).

    Having three AP options that Tokyo Disney has (either single park or both parks) would provide an objective method of allocating revenues.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Well, hopefully they can fix it right this time. So when its time to actually start turning a profit, they actually can turn a profit!
    The $20/day amount, or whatever the break-even spending amount is, needs to be breached.
    (Heck, I assume DB does his part at the Cove Bar!)

    It has to stop being the "AP Lounge," somehow.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  9. #54

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    That is $120 Million a year.

    Or over $325,000 a day!

    And lets say that 6 million guests visit DCA a year.

    That is basically $20 per person, per visit.
    Could I just collect mine at the gate?

  10. #55

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    The $20/day amount, or whatever the break-even spending amount is, needs to be breached.
    (Heck, I assume DB does his part at the Cove Bar!)

    It has to stop being the "AP Lounge," somehow.
    Absolutely it needs to be breached, and absolutely the park needs to stop being the AP Lounge. And I think thats one of the main goals right now with the $1.2 Billion -- if Disney can invest in attractions and park re-design that will draw guests, then the $20 per day could possibly be breached.

    If Disney is really committing to using all of the $1.2 billion and use it in a way that doesn't just come off like more band-aid fixes like Tower of Terror or "a bug's land," then people will start coming back, and dare I say it - maybe even buy single tickets especially for DCA.

    The problem right now is that Disney needs to stop insulting park guests and actually give us a theme for the themepark. Guests may check their common sense at the park gates, but they can still comprehend an intelligent, properly-themed theme park. Throwing random characters and films at the park (Ratatouille, Little Mermaid, Cars, Toy Story) with no regard to the park's theme is only going to create more problems. Its just going to look like more bandaids, and it ain't gonna stop the hemmoraging.

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  11. #56

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Absolutely it needs to be breached, and absolutely the park needs to stop being the AP Lounge. And I think thats one of the main goals right now with the $1.2 Billion -- if Disney can invest in attractions and park re-design that will draw guests, then the $20 per day could possibly be breached.
    Step one should be to determine what that amount is now. The Lounge Factor will still remain if there is no way to determine the market's price for a single-park AP.

    Creating an allocation method for APs (or, there is always......my way....) should be very simple to do, within the year. Simply start offering one-park APs at some lower amount, and increase the two-park AP to whatever they were planning to increase them to. It's quite possible that this simple set-up could show that DCA is (and has been) a profitable park, just that there was no way before to value the APers' fondness of it. Anything's possible, though (with my imagination).
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  12. #57

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    Absolutely it needs to be breached, and absolutely the park needs to stop being the AP Lounge. And I think thats one of the main goals right now with the $1.2 Billion -- if Disney can invest in attractions and park re-design that will draw guests, then the $20 per day could possibly be breached.

    If Disney is really committing to using all of the $1.2 billion and use it in a way that doesn't just come off like more band-aid fixes like Tower of Terror or "a bug's land," then people will start coming back, and dare I say it - maybe even buy single tickets especially for DCA.

    The problem right now is that Disney needs to stop insulting park guests and actually give us a theme for the themepark. Guests may check their common sense at the park gates, but they can still comprehend an intelligent, properly-themed theme park. Throwing random characters and films at the park (Ratatouille, Little Mermaid, Cars, Toy Story) with no regard to the park's theme is only going to create more problems. Its just going to look like more bandaids, and it ain't gonna stop the hemmoraging.
    According to Mr. Liver, Disney thinks that the reason D.C.A. fails is because it doesn't have enough random characters in it who appeal to the "family" audience.

    The rumors about "Ratatouille" and "The Little Mermaid" seem to support the idea that that asinine assessment has gained currency inside the organization, so the park may very well be doomed.

  13. #58

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    Step one should be to determine what that amount is now. The Lounge Factor will still remain if there is no way to determine the market's price for a single-park AP.

    Creating an allocation method for APs (or, there is always......my way....) should be very simple to do, within the year. Simply start offering one-park APs at some lower amount, and increase the two-park AP to whatever they were planning to increase them to. It's quite possible that this simple set-up could show that DCA is (and has been) a profitable park, just that there was no way before to value the APers' fondness of it. Anything's possible, though (with my imagination).
    I'm not sure that a single-park AP is necessary. No other Disney Resort has a single-park AP to my knowledge - although I could be wrong... Disneyland doesn't need to have a single-park AP either.
    What needs to be done is targeting more out-of-town visitors, or even non-AP locals that will make a trip to visit the new DCA.

    Eliminate the 2fer. Eliminate Southern California discounts. Stop giving such heavy discounts for multi-day ParkHoppers.

    If they make DCA worth the price people will pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    According to Mr. Liver, Disney thinks that the reason D.C.A. fails is because it doesn't have enough random characters in it who appeal to the "family" audience.

    The rumors about "Ratatouille" and "The Little Mermaid" seem to support the idea that that asinine assessment has gained currency inside the organization, so the park may very well be doomed.
    People within Disney who have the same viewpoints as Mr Liver simply don't understand why the parks are successful, and don't understand the specially-crafted synergy that Walt Disney partook in.

    Disney thinks that synergy is the end-all and they seem to think that because Walt Disney did it often, that it's perfectly acceptable 100% of the time. It's not. And the kind of synergy that Walt did was far more productive than what current-day Disney does. Walt's synergy was also smart, well-thought out, and it didn't insult the intelligence of the consumers. Disney's present-day syenergy is everything that Walt's synergy was not.

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  14. #59

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGracey View Post
    People within Disney who have the same viewpoints as Mr Liver simply don't understand why the parks are successful, and don't understand the specially-crafted synergy that Walt Disney partook in.
    Ok, how do I put this...

    They know EXACTLY what makes the parks successful. They have survey takers inside the gates and outside the gates to take the opinions of guests, and they hire market research firms to do surveys of people who have never stepped foot on Disney property. They have their research that shows which attractions are more popular over time with an audience and which one are guaranteed to be successful. They know exactly what their audience wants because they ASK them and they are following a progression now that started 20 years ago.

    It's quite simple: People WANT movie tie-ins and characters. Tony Baxter, who is the lead Imagineer for Disneyland has spent nearly his whole career creating theme park experiences based on movies. He based Discovery Bay on Disney's flop "Island on the Top of the World" a full decade before Eisner and Rasulo and Pressler came on board. Movie Tie-ins have been a part of the parks for decades and will continue to be so, even when it doesn't seem to make much sense thematically.

    The movie tie-ins happen because they work. For the 100th time: Disney wouldn't be doing it, if they didn't think it would be successful.

  15. #60

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    Re: Amazing NY Times article from February 11th, 2001 and Paradise Pier

    Let's just hope that the recent departure of Mendenhall brings about more judicious decision-making.

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