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  1. #16

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustymuscle View Post
    Actually, you're dead wrong.
    The Haunted Mansion too, has been revamped; introducing its guests to a house of horrors, once-and-still occupied by a murderous bride whose greed fueled the deaths of five of her husbands, their souls crossing through the ether at the call of a decapitated gypsy.
    At least with HM though it is still primarily an immersion rather than a hard-driven story, unlike Paris' Phantom Manor which has a much more soldified story.

  2. #17

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by kirbilicious View Post
    At least with HM though it is still primarily an immersion rather than a hard-driven story, unlike Paris' Phantom Manor which has a much more soldified story.
    Oh, I agree. But mentioning the storyization of the Haunted Mansion was only as evidence to my point. In fact, on a personal tinge, I actually, enjoy the story portion of the HM.

    But as a whole, being the original query, I believe that Immersion, though overshadowed by Storytelling, is not totally dead.

  3. #18

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by alphabassetgrrl View Post
    In general I prefer experience rides. I can make up my own stories, and I really really dislike the spoonfeeding that seems to be increasing in society over the last few years. Kids can't just play and make up their own stories- they're given stories; movies hand-feed us the plot; where did our imagination go?
    I completely agree with that. Personally I hate figuring out a film, show, or book. I like the shock, the twists and turns. Todays writers tend to foreshadow everything several chapters in advance. They practically hand you the ending half way through the movie. When you ask them why the comment is generally "We had to dumb it down because people didn't get it!" I think the development of force fed attractions is the same way. They are catering to the lowest common denominator... the adults who can't imagine and otherwise wouldn't get it.
    Last edited by techskip; 09-26-2007 at 07:21 PM.
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  4. #19

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    I completely agree with that. Personally I hate figuring out a film, show, or book. I like the shock, the twists and turns. Todays writers tend to foreshadow everything several chapaters in advance. They practically hand you the ending half way through the movie. When you ask them why the comment is generally "We had to dumb it down because people didn't get it!" I think the development of force fed attractions is the same way. They are catering to the lowest common denominator... the adults who can't imagine and otherwise wouldn't get it.

    See and I think most people DO "get it" and it's the people who don't "get it" who complain and thats what the writers hear.

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  5. #20

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    In the past, most rides didn't have overt storytelling associated with them. They provided implied stories through experience. Disney gave you the framework; your imagination supplied the rest. They could be (and many are) enjoyed over and over again, because of this construction:

    Matterhorn
    DRR
    Carousel
    Storybook Land
    Mark Twain
    Columbia
    HM
    Pirates
    TSI
    Main Street Vehicles
    Monorail
    Submarine Voyage
    Jungle Cruise
    Rocket Jets
    Swiss Family Treehouse
    People Mover.

    Some did have overt stories, but they worked, because the illusions/immersions were so strong:

    Mission to Moon/Mars
    ATIS
    Fantasyland dark rides

    Today, we've seen what can happen when the implied stories are subjected to overt, in-your-face elements that spoon-feed us the story, and re-create the fourth wall that Walt tried so hard to obliterate:

    Tarzan Treehouse
    BLAB
    Submarines

  6. #21

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Some did have overt stories, but they worked, because the illusions/immersions were so strong:

    Mission to Moon/Mars
    ATIS
    Fantasyland dark rides
    Good points, Steve. Imagineering needs to learn that story isn't a necessity. And story should ONLY be used when it is necessary to the attraction.

    Guests don't need a story. All we need is good, well-crafted entertainment.

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  7. #22

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Today, we've seen what can happen when the implied stories are subjected to overt, in-your-face elements that spoon-feed us the story, and re-create the fourth wall that Walt tried so hard to obliterate:

    Tarzan Treehouse
    BLAB
    Submarines
    BLAB? I don't detect the story there. I guess I'm too focused on out-scoring my 8-year old nephew. Hey, I've got my pride man!

    My preference is immersion. The same story gets old after a few times - I hardly ever go into any of the non-Soarin' movies anymore. BT-DT. Immersion experiences allow me to explore and notice new things each time without being constantly directed.

  8. #23

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    personally, I'm about immersion. While I believe there needs to be some story, it should be loose, and the people riding the attraction should make the story what they want to be. Look at Haunted Mansion, Indiana Jones, Jungle Cruise, Pirates, Matterhorn. There is no real story. There is the location, but as to what you are actually doing on a boat going through the jungle or a jeep going through a temple, or a buggy going through a mansion or a bobsled going through a mountain is up to the rider. I, personally, like making my own story and adventure.

  9. #24

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    I find it interesting that every response so far has been in the affirmative for "immersion and imagination" and not one person has said that they prefer to have a "story" told to them.

    Considering the fact that most of the attractions made now days are story-driven, who do you think Disney is listening to when planning these attractions?
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  10. #25

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lazyboy97O View Post
    Agreed. And many times it is the same formula.
    OH NO! Something went wrong.

  11. #26

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by notlemc View Post
    personally, I'm about immersion. While I believe there needs to be some story, it should be loose, and the people riding the attraction should make the story what they want to be. Look at Haunted Mansion, Indiana Jones, Jungle Cruise, Pirates, Matterhorn. There is no real story. There is the location, but as to what you are actually doing on a boat going through the jungle or a jeep going through a temple, or a buggy going through a mansion or a bobsled going through a mountain is up to the rider. I, personally, like making my own story and adventure.
    Oh, I disagree. Indiana Jones is very much a comprehensive story. In fact, the Imagineering crew dedicated so much to the prestory of the Temple that ciphers were needed to decode the hieroglyphs on the walls.

    Indy is actually, in everybody's opinion (though I have no place to speak for everybody), the best of both immersion and storytelling. You are completely enveloped into Indiana Jones' latest archaeological expedition. You know the parameters of which to address the goddess, and we, as characters, wholly disobey those rules, thus resulting in the adventure ride.

    Beginning, middle (climax), and ending. The result being the lucky escape from the Temple's many perils (darts, rats, lava, monster-sized snakes, etc.), to come out thankfully unscathed.

    What's the lesson to be learned? Always obey Harrison Ford's animatronic doppleganger.

  12. #27

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
    OH NO! Something went wrong.
    LOL...

    I think George Lucas had something to do with that... Star Tours, Indiana Jones, Alien Encounter... three very popular attractions with that same premise.

    Not that I have a particular problem with it.

    I see Disney Theme park attractions much the same way I see literature: different experiences and influences create different... say, genres?

    For example: I love the implied or somewhat unstructured story of Space Mountain. I'd be disappointed if it were to change to a "something went wrong" explicit storyline. However, just like poetic imagery doesn't sell a social commentary essay, that sort of unstructured storytelling would ruin an experience like Indiana Jones. (Imagine it: you ride in a vehicle through various Indiana Jones inspired scenes? No, you need a story.)

    Which is best? I can't say it's that simple.

    What about the "Edu-tainment" attractions? What was the storyline to...say... Rocket to the Moon (I'm ignorant to the exact name )? Was the relatively straight forward "you are going to take a trip to the moon" storyline somehow less special than the subs?

    There are various types of storytelling and entertainment in the world of literature, film, and the like, why not allow that same variety in Theme Park Attractions?

    While the explicit storyline is what's popular today, I feel there are still plenty of the other kinds of attractions available. Some attractions are stronger than others, but I don't feel that's enough to claim one type of story telling device is superior than another.

    The "soon-to-be-current" interactive story telling devices looks like an exciting and unique genera that will, once again, provide a richer experience for story telling. The exciting thing is to wonder what is beyond that, and beyond that, and beyond that.

    There will always be love and room for various types of storytelling in theme park rides.
    Last edited by thejoshualee; 09-26-2007 at 04:16 PM.
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  13. #28

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    In the past, most rides didn't have overt storytelling associated with them. They provided implied stories through experience. Disney gave you the framework; your imagination supplied the rest. They could be (and many are) enjoyed over and over again, because of this construction:

    Matterhorn
    DRR
    Carousel
    Storybook Land
    Mark Twain
    Columbia
    HM
    Pirates
    TSI
    Main Street Vehicles
    Monorail
    Submarine Voyage
    Jungle Cruise
    Rocket Jets
    Swiss Family Treehouse
    People Mover.

    Some did have overt stories, but they worked, because the illusions/immersions were so strong:

    Mission to Moon/Mars
    ATIS
    Fantasyland dark rides

    Today, we've seen what can happen when the implied stories are subjected to overt, in-your-face elements that spoon-feed us the story, and re-create the fourth wall that Walt tried so hard to obliterate:

    Tarzan Treehouse
    BLAB
    Submarines
    The fourth wall reference seems misplaced here. BLAB completely gets rid of the fourth wall, almost to a point of the ridiculous. There is a story there and you are in the middle of it.

    What about things like The Country Bear Jamboree or the Tiki Room?

    Tarzan Treehouse does much the same thing that Swiss Family Robinson did or the Storybook Canals do, that is, give you a somewhat limited immersion into the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Circarama View Post
    I find it interesting that every response so far has been in the affirmative for "immersion and imagination" and not one person has said that they prefer to have a "story" told to them.

    Considering the fact that most of the attractions made now days are story-driven, who do you think Disney is listening to when planning these attractions?
    I find it sort of sad that everyone only sees this as a "this or that" mentality. Any communication media (and I think an attraction can qualify as that) can not exist as an "island" metaphorically speaking.

    What's the purpose of an attraction?

    To Entertain?
    To tell a story?
    To provide information and education?
    To get a thrill?
    To transport guests around the park?
    To immerse in an alternate reality?
    To awaken the child within?
    To provide a jump off for imagination?
    To relieve stress?
    To simulate the exotic and fantastic?
    To create memories?
    To bond families and friendship?

    Yes, yes, and yes.

    Admittedly, the overt story telling is pretty prevalent now, but time changes all things. Interactivity may be the next big thing.

    But just as there is room today for Gothic Horror, Sonnets, Shakespearian Plays, and other genres claimed to be extinct by various "experts" at various times, There will always be classic attractions of all types.

    So to answer the question: What do I prefer? I prefer an attraction that melds whatever aspects of what an attraction can be while keeping to the artistic and creative vision. Do all Disney attractions fulfill this? No, but most do.
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  14. #29

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Circarama View Post
    Considering the fact that most of the attractions made now days are story-driven, who do you think Disney is listening to when planning these attractions?
    Lowest common denominator. We have to make everything so simplistic, so even the dumbest of us can get it, lest we lose those dollars.

    Meanwhile anybody with a brain gets bored. Or maybe I'm just too cynical.
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  15. #30

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    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by alphabassetgrrl View Post
    Lowest common denominator. We have to make everything so simplistic, so even the dumbest of us can get it, lest we lose those dollars.

    Meanwhile anybody with a brain gets bored. Or maybe I'm just too cynical.
    Can I be rude and just say short sighted?

    Dumbo is a stupid ride. There I said it. So are the Tea Cups. What story telling or immersion is there? You can see everything around you, there are no controlled scenes. The teacups is just a contest to see who gets sick and dumbo doesn't even have that going for it.

    Okay, they are not stupid rides, they just don't follow the narrow vision of what these "ideas" say an attraction is suppose to provide.


    I also have to point out that "imagination" is a relative concept. My wife loves Dumbo because that ride triggers her imagination. I love BLAB because that triggers my imagination. Same with Star Tours, Indiana Jones, Tower of Terror, and other attractions that have overt story telling.

    If a ride doesn't trigger your imagination, at least at Disney Theme Parks, then don't blame the attraction. Yes, Disney is responsible to to everything they can to make the best attractions possible, but they can't inject you with imagination. My nephew plays star tours and tower of terror as much as he plays space mountain or Haunted Mansion.
    St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

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