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  1. #46

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by fantoongal View Post
    I know myself and probably a lot of other CM's would disagree with this. Where would the efficiency be if I had to stop somewhere off property to get my costume before going to work?
    Most of the operational cast and crew are already parking off-site. So, locating wardrobe storage in these parking areas is potentially more efficient, but Disney doesn't want to pay for the time that employees are on the shuttles. And, that mentality needs to change.

  2. #47

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    To the first statement, define "popular"? My definition is: the amount a single attraction contributes to overall guest satisfaction.
    That's what I meant as well. How much does an attraction like Thunder Mountain contribute to guest satisfaction over an attraction like say, the Mine Train thru Nature's Wonderland?

    To the second statement, I'd advise you not to kid yourself. It won't just be the 1000th time on Pirates of the Caribbean. It will also be the 1000th time on "it's a small world", the 999th time on Star Tours, and the 1001st time on The Haunted Mansion, too. You won't be able to replace the whole park. And, you'll still have to reinvest.
    This doesn't make much sense to me. Are you advocating that in the future when Pirates and Haunted Mansion are no longer popular, that they remain open or that they simply close without replacement? And if you want to keep them open, why would you spend money keeping unpopular attractions open?

    It would certainly be easier and more cost efficient to replace the parts of the park that are not working piece by piece than expanding the park and facing the same problems in the future, except on a larger scale.

  3. #48

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Had Pressler not pushed the AP program allowing individuals discounted entry into the parks, there would have been a significant decrease in attendance following the opening of Indy.

    Over the course of a decade, attendance patterns followed the same rule - periods of high attendance when an attraction opened, and periods of low attendance in between. Pressler changed Disneyland's strategy from intense capital expenditures to discount programs and smaller scale entertainment offerings that could be updated regularly - to keep attendance high. So far it's worked pretty well.
    Pressler shifted the demography of the guest attendance. To the detriment of DL, IMO. It was probably easier for the management of the time to make money on repeat customers by offering those customers what they want, which was, coincidentally, nothing changed, instead of trying to improve the park experience for everyone.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  4. #49

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by sediment View Post
    I'm not discussing the prices. I'm discussing the average admission revenue. Ask the typical MiceChatter what his/her average admission cost was, and it would likely be much lower than the ticket-window prices. Multiply that by 600,000, and you'll see the missing opportunity, combined with those who ARE buying single-day tickets NOT getting their money's worth when the park is more crowded due to the available admission media providing cheap entertainment to those who, ironically, might pay more for it. (And, thus those single-day ticket buyers decide to visit even less often.)
    The "bulk discount" annual passholders receive is offset by the amount of money they spend on overpriced food and merchandise. They aren't making less money on APs. They are probably making more in the long run.

  5. #50

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Oh lets not turn this into an AP bashing thread.
    Please visit my Big Thunder/Disney Inspired Model Railroad


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  6. #51

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by BigThunder View Post
    Oh lets not turn this into an AP bashing thread.
    I have never, and never will, bash AP'ers. It is a great deal, and anyone planning to visit more than six days over the year should certainly consider purchasing one, and then should consider going even more often.

    The program, though, has to go. Starting with the PAP option.
    Can't expand DL without a return on investment. AP Program hampers potential returns, since the revenue is constant. No one would buy more APs just because of an expansion.
    Last edited by sediment; 11-02-2007 at 04:06 PM.
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  7. #52

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by Pressler69 View Post
    The "bulk discount" annual passholders receive is offset by the amount of money they spend on overpriced food and merchandise. They aren't making less money on APs. They are probably making more in the long run.
    Meh. I'm guessing that people smart enough to save money by buying AP's are also smart enough not to buy overpriced food every time they go.
    Or at least keep their buying to a minimum (snacks for meals instead of sit-down meals, buying a meal splitting it for two, etc.), and looking for merchandise with discounteed prices, and using their discounts.
    That's what I would do, if I went more often.

    Downside is that TDA starts focusing on the selling of food and merchandise as the revenue generators, instead of DL itself and its attractions. That starts to put off those guests who were expecting more for their admission money than an unfocussed DL. And the death spiral begins...
    "Here You Leave the World of California Today and Enter the World of, um, er, California Today."

  8. #53

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    I can assure you that long ago there was in fact an expansion plan for the park, that included an expansion of New Orleans Square into the space behind the Mansion and Pirates showbuildings.
    But that plan didn't happen, and I don't think it would have worked well. How were the show buildings going to be disguised? More shop facades built along the outside of the Haunted Mansion and Pirates show buildings? This would have gotten a little too monotonous, though I LOVE the buildings of NOS. Furthermore, how were guests going to enter this area? If this plan were created before Splash's existence, I could understand perhaps having them walking around the north side of HM and into the new area. That would have been a pretty strange route, though. Hard area to get to.

    Where did you get this information from, if you don't mind my asking? I'm not seeing how an unused plan from long ago proves that it would now be possible to improve the Disneyland experience by wrapping around the the NOS show buildings.


  9. #54

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    Furthermore, pay-per-play attractions, or attractions with pay-per-play options, can potentially increase overall guest spending.
    That would also make better attractions available to the park, as they would essentially be able to pay for themselves in just a few years. Currently they find it hard to justify adding significant attractions when all they can do is boost the park entrance price only a couple of dollars a year, providing under $30 million to cover any new attraction plus all other general park overhead cost increases.

  10. #55

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by Pressler69 View Post
    The "bulk discount" annual passholders receive is offset by the amount of money they spend on overpriced food and merchandise. They aren't making less money on APs. They are probably making more in the long run.
    They make money on AP holders, but they don't make as much money as they would with the same attendance figures all paying one day prices.

    Consider that 14 million people visited Disneyland in 1989 and they all paid an average of 30 dollars to get into the park. Now in 2007, 14 million people go to the park, but do they all pay an average of 30 dollars to get in?


    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    Where did you get this information from, if you don't mind my asking? I'm not seeing how an unused plan from long ago proves that it would now be possible to improve the Disneyland experience by wrapping around the the NOS show buildings.
    The plan was from WDI years and years ago. I did a search and pretty much the only physical evidence I have about that old plan was from an old TV show, with a young Tony Baxter.








    The point is - that no matter how hard it might seem, there's always a way to physically expand the park. You can always move essential services and incorporate them into new structures. Even in an area as unlikely as New Orleans Square.

  11. #56

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    Consider that 14 million people visited Disneyland in 1989 and they all paid an average of 30 dollars to get into the park. Now in 2007, 14 million people go to the park, but do they all pay an average of 30 dollars to get in?
    Actually the price in 1989 was $23.50 for adults and $18.50 for children. Prices were then raised $2 on Dec 2nd that same year.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C1A96F948260

    Not at all surprised by the reason for the price increase. Splash Mountain of course. That's the justification for price increases, expansion. You can't just rip out something old and put in something new, especially if it's not as good as what it replaced, and then raise prices.

    Also, the 2007 numbers aren't in yet, but according to articles like this: http://www.local6.com/news/14156738/detail.html they may be breaking records yet again. Restoring attractions such as Submarine Voyage and installing new ones into vacant spaces such as Buzz Lightyear probably helped. Utilizing the dead space and then expanding into new space will only help attendance further. It's no surprise that attendance dwindled into the 12 millions under the Pressler/Harris era. Disneyland is once again hitting those numbers not seen since Indiana Jones.

    And I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that guests are paying as much or more per visit on average compared to 1989 or any other previous year.

    Yes, there are power users like myself that visit 40-50 times a year, but those kinds of people are few and far between.

    Of course, neither of us have any hard data. I would love to see the stats on this but unfortunately Disney does not release them.
    Last edited by Pressler69; 11-03-2007 at 12:56 AM.

  12. #57

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    According to the inflation calculator, ( http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ ):

    What cost $23.50 in 1989 would cost $38.62 in 2006.

    So we're either over paying now or underpaid then.

  13. #58

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    The plan was from WDI years and years ago. I did a search and pretty much the only physical evidence I have about that old plan was from an old TV show, with a young Tony Baxter.
    Very interesting! Thanks for the screenshots.

    The point is - that no matter how hard it might seem, there's always a way to physically expand the park. You can always move essential services and incorporate them into new structures. Even in an area as unlikely as New Orleans Square.
    Okay, perhaps I should rephrase--it's impossible to expand into the southwest quarter of backstage without sacrificing at least one major attraction. You'll notice that Tony is using a map that contains neither Splash nor Indy, since neither had been created yet. The region was vastly different, and I'm still convinced that the area as it currently is couldn't be transformed into a successful new onstage area without the removal of Indy, HM, and/or Splash. Considering these are three of the park's big "classics", I don't see any sense in that.

    EDIT: The "essential services" are indeed easier to move. Keep in mind, though, that another major addition since that plan was created is the ODV building, which is quite a large and important structure right at the heart of that proposed area. Now, this could be relocated...but I don't think the cast would take kindly to that.

    Maybe I'm just too attached to these backstage areas...


  14. #59

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    With a little imagination, many of these facilities can be moved off-site. For example, the Entertainment Rehearsal Hall consumes a huge amount of real estate behind Mickey's Toontown, and that building could easily be converted into space for a new attraction. The wardrobe building for the operational cast and crew does not need to be on-site, either. There are really all sorts of possibilities for making more efficient use of the property.
    They would have to analyze it carefully, but a lot can be moved or concentrated - the existing shop buildings are single story steel sheds and "pole barns" thrown up piecemeal as they needed the space, and besides looking really shabby they have very poor space utilization.

    If they bought the triangular "Sphagetti Station / Station Inn" property on the north side of Ball Road next to the freeway they could put in a multi-story "light industrial lofts" style building for some of the maintenance shops like painting, signs, Characters - items that can easily be transported over and back to be worked on. There is parking available under the Ball Rd. bridge, not to mention you could make a Backstage footpath and bicycle path under there.

    There is a grey glass high-rise office building (12 stories?) right at the I-5 off-ramps that has been vacant since the expansion started because the road access was severely impacted by the Disneyland Drive rework - the only tenant is the cellsites on the roof. That could easily be converted to rehearsal halls and office space for the Entertainment Department.

    Okay, right there I just cleared enough room to radically expand ToonTown with another E-ticket ride building or two...
    Quote Originally Posted by Pressler69 View Post
    The "bulk discount" annual passholders receive is offset by the amount of money they spend on overpriced food and merchandise. They aren't making less money on APs. They are probably making more in the long run.
    Well, they would make more money on the dining and merchandise, if many of the AP's weren't so bored with the choices that we eat off-site before or after...

    I keep saying this: They have to expand and mix up the menus and the options occasionally to keep it interesting, even the once-a-year visitors notice that there isn't much variety at all. They didn't even bring back the holiday special "Chicken Six Feet Under" at French Market this year.

    (They also close half the serving line way too early {before 8} and shove the queue line clear out to the river, but that's a whole 'nother problem...)

    DATAMEISTER: They can expand two or three more big rides to the southwest, but they would have to be built like Indy: Once you enter the queue you stay inside all the way to, and during, and from the ride.

    The Outdoor Vending building could be moved or consolidated - or could be moved to a new facility in the basement of new show building #1, and then the old ODV shed razed to put up show building #2 with some Shops or Warehouse space underneath...

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  15. #60

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    Re: How far can you expand the Disneyland Resort

    They can expand two or three more big rides to the southwest, but they would have to be built like Indy: Once you enter the queue you stay inside all the way to, and during, and from the ride.
    That's something I've often pondered, but I've got to say, it would be really hard to make this work.

    Option #1 is to build the queue entrance right next to the Indy queue entrance. There's already severely limited space here, but I suppose you could fit the entrance in here somewhere. Eventually, this new queue would have to tunnel beneath the Indy queue. You can't build on top because much of it is actually aboveground, and anything above it would be visible from the Jungle Cruise. So this would be an expensive dig operation, and the queue would have to be significantly longer than Indy's in order to reach the show building site, sitting approximately where DDS has its offices today.

    Option #2 would be to utilize the Magnolia Park area of NOS as the start of a queue that tunnels beneath the railroad station and enters a show building behind the Haunted Mansion's show building, about where the ODV building is now. As I said before, I doubt the necessary relocation of ODV would be particularly helpful to the CMs, although this plan would require a shorter tunnel than option #1. This would make things difficult for passengers-to-be waiting at the NOS train station, though.

    Option #3 is the least likely of the motley crew--build the queue in the narrow space between the HM and Splash show buildings, leading to a facility just a little bit north of Option #2. Unlike the other two plans, this one would almost certainly require the tunnel to continue to be underground backstage, since that's an important walkway with no room to spare. The other option would be to build it as an elevated tunnel...but I don't know how well that'd work. I suppose you could also build this tunnel partly on top of the HM show building's roof, though I don't know if the roof could support the weight and this would need to be somehow hidden from guests. (Keep in mind that the Haunted Mansion show building is just barely hidden behind the berm. If it were a foot taller, you'd be able to see the roofline.) In any case, there's already little room between the Haunted Mansion and Splash Mountain, so this would be a very tricky operation.


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