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  1. #16

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode




    Now imagine a dead horse where he's banging....
    "Keep Moving Forward."

  2. #17

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by 1FoolishMortal View Post



    Now imagine a dead horse where he's banging....
    Move along then... nothing for you here.

    Nothing wrong with us discussing possibilities.
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  3. #18

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by Circarama View Post
    Move along then... nothing for you here.

    Nothing wrong with us discussing possibilities.
    Oh, I don't necessarily have a problem with some of the ideas, it's the reasoning behind them that's still leaving me perplexed. Why DL needs to be updated simply because DCA is getting its "story" changed is an odd proposal to say the least.
    "Keep Moving Forward."

  4. #19

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLiver View Post
    I think there's only room for one Peter Pan at Disneyland. By changing the characters to fit a 1900s model, you would be confusing the guests who would want to see the "real" Peter Pan.

    If you create a show featuring the Disney version of Peter Pan, I think it would be more at home in Fantasyland than on Main Street.


    Mr. Liver,



    You and I actually seem to agree on this, which I believe is one of the signs of the Apocalypse .

    I do think having more than one version of Peter Pan might be confusing.

    I could potentially see an image of a somewhat Victorianized but still recognizably Disney Peter Pan used somewhere on Main Street, (the same way that the Nemo Subs poster emulates the period style of the old Subs poster). But I do feel his main home is in Fantasyland.

    On a slightly related note, Disney seems to be launching a campaign of having characters in two places, dividing popular franchises between the two parks. Last time I was there, I saw ads on buses emphasizing the fact that the Nemo Subs were in DL and Turtle Talk was in DCA. This will probably continue with BLAB in DL and Toy Story Midway Mania in DCA.
    Last edited by animagusurreal; 11-03-2007 at 07:41 PM.
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  5. #20

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    And, while a turn-of-the-19th-Century "Peter Pan" show in the opera house wouldn't bother me, either, a simple mention of the play can be just as effective in enriching the Main Street, U.S.A. story with historical details that are of special significance to The Walt Disney Company.
    Prag, you take a lot of abuse here (occasionally from me), but I do have to say that your intentions are nothing but the best. You really want to layer Disneyland with many intelligent, sophisticated details, and for that you should be commended.

    That said, I really think you would be playing to about one dozen or less individuals on the planet who would appreciate the elaborate and almost subliminal message of a posted playbill for a circa 1905 Peter Pan stage production outside the Disneyland Opera House. Honestly, that little detail would be missed by 99.5% of the visitors to Disneyland.

    And let's imagine one of the 0.5% of Disneyland visitors who did happen to notice the cleverly placed playbill near the Opera House entrance.

    Picture the average family from Whittier, California visiting Disneyland for their once every 18 month visit. Dad with his shaved head and Raiders football jersey. Mom in her Wal-Mart maternity wear. Three adorable children in junior gang attire, with the 5 year old boy sporting the same shaved head haircut that dear old Dad wears.

    Waiting for Mom to return from the ladies room, Dad peers down at the antique Peter Pan playbill jauntily placed on the WDI designed theater notice board outside the Opera House. Ah! our father figure says to himself, here's a reference to J.M. Barrie's original stage production of Peter Pan. As his lovely wife returns from the ladies room, Dad is happy to point this clever detail out to her while the children beat up Pluto near the Mad Hatter. "Look honey, here's a nod to the cutting edge theater that must have inspired a young Walter Elias as it crossed the ocean and spread to small town America at the dawn of the great American Century! How clever those Disney artists are to include that in this thematic setting, as if to prod us forward to explore the other realms of this Magic Kingdom! Peel the kids off Pluto before security arrives and let's begin our day of enlightenment and wonder!"

    Somehow, I don't imagine that's how it would go down, even for those Disneyland visitors that even notice such a vague reference on Main Street USA.

  6. #21

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by TP2000 View Post
    Prag, you take a lot of abuse here (occasionally from me), but I do have to say that your intentions are nothing but the best. You really want to layer Disneyland with many intelligent, sophisticated details, and for that you should be commended.

    That said, I really think you would be playing to about one dozen or less individuals on the planet who would appreciate the elaborate and almost subliminal message of a posted playbill for a circa 1905 Peter Pan stage production outside the Disneyland Opera House. Honestly, that little detail would be missed by 99.5% of the visitors to Disneyland.

    And let's imagine one of the 0.5% of Disneyland visitors who did happen to notice the cleverly placed playbill near the Opera House entrance.

    Picture the average family from Whittier, California visiting Disneyland for their once every 18 month visit. Dad with his shaved head and Raiders football jersey. Mom in her Wal-Mart maternity wear. Three adorable children in junior gang attire, with the 5 year old boy sporting the same shaved head haircut that dear old Dad wears.

    Waiting for Mom to return from the ladies room, Dad peers down at the antique Peter Pan playbill jauntily placed on the WDI designed theater notice board outside the Opera House. Ah! our father figure says to himself, here's a reference to J.M. Barrie's original stage production of Peter Pan. As his lovely wife returns from the ladies room, Dad is happy to point this clever detail out to her while the children beat up Pluto near the Mad Hatter. "Look honey, here's a nod to the cutting edge theater that must have inspired a young Walter Elias as it crossed the ocean and spread to small town America at the dawn of the great American Century! How clever those Disney artists are to include that in this thematic setting, as if to prod us forward to explore the other realms of this Magic Kingdom! Peel the kids off Pluto before security arrives and let's begin our day of enlightenment and wonder!"

    Somehow, I don't imagine that's how it would go down, even for those Disneyland visitors that even notice such a vague reference on Main Street USA.
    One has to ask oneself which kind of audience he or she wants Disneyland to have.

    Historically, Disneyland has hosted royalty and other heads of state, as well as luminaries in countless other fields. Many of the people who initially responded to Disneyland's appeal were quite sophisticated. Disney, himself, was the darling of the intelligentsia for much of his early career. So, somehow, I don't think The Magic Kingdom should be reserved just for the Wal-Martians. (I happen to like shaved heads, myself, though. )

    The point is that Disneyland's appeal should cut a broad swath across the populace. The resort has enormous fixed costs that have to be spread over as many different kinds of people as possible. While the Presslerites considered Disneyland's guests with a derisive, disdainful, and contemptuous condescension, the Disney of today needs to treat its audience with respect and with a full appreciation of their intelligence. Doing so is essential to finding future earnings growth through attracting more people from less-traditional market segments, including those that are more affluent.

    Most importantly, those guests who may be a few bulbs short of an electrical parade are not going to be alienated by any of these details, and, in many ways, like children, these people will "reach", to use Walt Disney's word, if they are inspired to do so. Assuming the best in humanity and appealing to those qualities is always the right course of action to take.

    The universal popularity of Walt Disney is due mostly to his appeals to the heart, but he always also appealed to the mind. And, that fact is really what made The Magic Kingdom the Great Equalizer Disneyland became.

    The Disney of today needs to return to that same mindset because every type of person should be able to walk through those gates and leave with "joy and inspiration", as well as with "some grain of wisdom, humanity, or enlightenment." Mr. Disney believed so, and I do, too.
    Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 11-05-2007 at 01:26 PM.

  7. #22

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Wow, good post. I think anybody would agree with that.

    Disney, himself, was the darling of the intelligentsia for much of his early career.
    But I did always think Disney couldn't get along with the "sophisticates" throughout a lot of his career.

  8. #23

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by scorsese View Post
    But I did always think Disney couldn't get along with the "sophisticates" throughout a lot of his career.
    Would you consider Salvadore Dali a "sophisticate?"

  9. #24

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by scorsese View Post
    Wow, good post. I think anybody would agree with that.



    But I did always think Disney couldn't get along with the "sophisticates" throughout a lot of his career.
    That notion isn't exactly true. The problems started arising later in his career for very specific reasons.

    Walt Disney wanted to distribute his own films because doing so would give him more artistic control. But, that distribution business is a double-edged sword because it creates a pipeline that has to be filled. So, Walt Disney was forced to fill it with offerings that bore less of his personal touch but that still bore his name. It's only natural to assume that the quantity of the output demanded by the increased size of the business and the infrastructure Disney created was going to result in more uneven quality.

    The organization was still creating great things with remarkably consistent quality, but many of them were not quite as impressive as some of the things coming from the studio before World War II.
    Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 11-05-2007 at 01:13 PM.

  10. #25

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Would you consider Salvadore Dali a "sophisticate?"
    Or Ray Bradbury?

    ...guests who may be a few bulbs short of an electrical parade...

    Prag, you're really coming around!!
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  11. #26

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    So, are we basically saying that smart & sophisticated folks who walk into the Disneyland of today are going to walk out offended because it's not smart enough? I'm not quite getting the point of this. I don't necessarily have a problem with smaller details being added, in fact I enjoy a lot of those less-noticed details. However, the reasoning behind them still bugs me. Why on earth do we need to update Main Street because DCA is getting a new entrance? Guests aren't dumb. They'll know the difference between DL's and DCA's entrance areas. To me, it seems like it's, "DCA is being updated so we should still try to outdo it with DL." I'm probably wrong on that assumption, but to an extent that's what it comes across as.


    What exactly is the point here? Is it that everyone who DL appeals to now is stupid and can't shop at anything better than Wal Mart? I doubt DL's mission statement consists of "let's play to simple minded people and not the 'overtly sophisticated.'"
    "Keep Moving Forward."

  12. #27

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Quote Originally Posted by 1FoolishMortal View Post
    ... the reasoning behind them still bugs me. Why on earth do we need to update Main Street because DCA is getting a new entrance?
    That's a great question.

    When put in perspective, there isn't any reason at all to change Main Street to make accomodations to DCA. It already "works", so why fix it?

    I guess the reason that I'm entertaining this idea is because I like the idea of actually having a stage show in the Opera House, not just putting out faux handbills that don't serve any real purpose other than trying to convince guests that they are actually on a street from the 1910's.

    Personally, I like this (stage play) idea independently of any improvements that they're making to DCA. As far as I'm concerned they are 2 completely seperate subjects of discussion.
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  13. #28

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Yeah, we've been through this before. Everyone agrees that there are endless (interesting and sophisticated) things that can be done to plus Main Street, but most people take issue behind the impetus that PI posits.

    And it KILLS ME, but I agree with PI's fantastic post above. Excellent points, and thank you for engaging us this time.

  14. #29

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    Yes, Prag, very thoughtful post above, and I agree with everything you say there. However, I still must take you to task for not addressing a rather important point in this discussion that has been brought up by myself and others any number of times now over these two threads:
    Quote Originally Posted by BigThunder View Post
    I still dispute your basic premise that anything needs to be done to Main St as part of the DCA remodeling. The reason behind the remodel is to bring DCA up to the quality standards that already exist at Disneyland. To have an entrance to the park of the same quality and function as Main St in Disneyland is the only goal that I've seen expressed by WDI. The over-arching thematic unity that you infer will be there without them doing anything at all to Main St.
    Please explain why you think an update of Main St is inferred in the DCA remodeling plan.
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  15. #30

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    Re: More of What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remode

    I don't know if the company has any plans to make minor alterations to Disneyland as part of the D.C.A. remodeling. But, as someone who was putting forth the idea of a 1923 entrance to D.C.A. long before the park was even open, I can tell you that my concept was entirely based on Main Street, U.S.A. While it is everyone's hometown, it is also Walt Disney's, first and foremost. So, when he made the decision to migrate from Middle America to California, he put in motion a series of events that would lead to the opening of Disneyland here in 1955 and to the opening of D.C.A. in 2001.

    Ultimately, the reason D.C.A. exists is because of the decision Walt Disney made in 1923.

    The recently-announced plan to demolish the current entrance of D.C.A. and replace it with one that tells the beginning of the story of Walt Disney in California will connect the second gate to the new park through the founder and his biography. So, Main Street, U.S.A. needs to be refined in certain ways in order to support the overall show comprising both parks.

    Redundancies need to be eliminated. The Californian Walt should be kept off Main Street. The characters he created in California need to be removed from Main Street, as well. And, guests to Main Street, U.S.A. need to understand better the autobiographical nature of this area. I can think of a few ways to accomplish these objectives, but I am curious to know if other MiceChat users, too, can identify specific areas that need to be addressed.

    These are the kinds of minor details that can sometimes get overlooked in designs and in budgets, but I am simply drawing the company's attention to Main Street, U.S.A. in order to ensure that the 1923 concept at D.C.A. is made clear to guests. Again, the remarkably-detailed book, How to Be Like Walt, has the potential to be marvelously instructive to the designers.

    If Disneyland and D.C.A. guests leave both parks with some of the same information the book provides, the project will succeed brilliantly.
    Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 11-05-2007 at 01:30 PM.

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