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  1. #46

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    I was doing research for a speech on club 33 and I found a really interesting article about Disneyland and the place it has in American Culture. It embodies a concept of "idealised realism". Yes, that kind of goes without saying- all the lands are an idealised and perfected vison of America, the frontier, New Orleans, etc. But they are idealised to such an extent, that to many people, these facsimilies become real- more real that the "actual" reality. Take New Orleans Square for example- the land is so finely detailed, you feel like you are in the French Quarter. To a visitor who has never expereinced the real thing, this becomes their perception of what New Orleans is, so much so that if they encountered the real thing, they might be dissapointed because it isn't quite so perfect.

    I thought this was a really interesting theory and the main point was this- in Disneyland, Walt Disney was presenting and perfecting an idealised America. Not the way it was, but the way it should have been. All the ideals he admired are shown in their purest form- freedom, enterprise, ingenuity, forward- thinking, imagination, courage, integrity, innocence, etc. In a way, Disneyland is what Walt wanted America to be.

    Not sure if this is precisely relevant to the discussion, but it came to mind, so I thought I would share it.
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  2. #47

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Thriller
    Which is pretty much a contradiction of what the plaque above the tunnel into Town Square says, eh?
    Nope.

  3. #48

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    dramaqueen: I think your interpretation is in the walt spirit. disneyland is about idealism, optimism, fantasy, nostalgia, the spiritual, the artistic - - not reality, not practicality, not actual history, not "the outside world" -- but what seemed to be, should have been, could be, should be, never was, might have been, might be - - inspirational dreams and ideals to make us aspire to their vision, not just settle for what is actually possible.

    The patriotic dream and ideal of America is an instrinsic part of Walt Disney's personal idealism and vision for Disneyland (and his entire body of work). Much as they try, it really can't be separated...

    Don't forget - - even "it's small world" is placed in Fantasyland - no accident or irony I'll wager...

  4. #49

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Druggas
    USA USA USA USA
    Now I am not sure what your goal was with this post, but if it was to provoke me - I'm not biting. I'm willing to discuss the likes and dislikes of this patriotism thing, but I don't think this is the right place. If you want to discuss, open up a topic in the lounge or something, and I'll see you there.

    I didn't want this topic to turn into this huge America-discussion, and perhaps I should have taken better care of what I say and adept to the audience more. Either way, again, I'm willing to discuss, but in the proper place
    Ad luna in flamma gloria

  5. #50

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Thriller
    Now I am not sure what your goal was with this post, but if it was to provoke me - I'm not biting. I'm willing to discuss the likes and dislikes of this patriotism thing, but I don't think this is the right place. If you want to discuss, open up a topic in the lounge or something, and I'll see you there.

    I didn't want this topic to turn into this huge America-discussion, and perhaps I should have taken better care of what I say and adept to the audience more. Either way, again, I'm willing to discuss, but in the proper place
    The "goal" of my post was to express my patriotism. No need to discuss it. Not to provoke either.


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  6. #51

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    Jumping in on a touchy subject, but here goes:
    Americans, by and large, are a people who love their country. We are proud of our country and we enjoy seeing symbols of our country. America has pulled more collective nuts from the fire than any other nation on the globe, and we know it. We are proud of it.
    Some people don't have the same love for their country as Americans do. As Americans, we can't help that. But don't expect Americans to tone down their love of country to please others, especially on our home turf. With all of the sacrifice that has been made by Americans for others, the least we can do is show some respect for that sacrifice by not ignoring our heritage.

    By the way, I'm glad you enjoyed Disneyland. It happens to be my favorite Park too.

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  7. #52

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinjones
    dramaqueen: I think your interpretation is in the walt spirit. disneyland is about idealism, optimism, fantasy, nostalgia, the spiritual, the artistic - - not reality, not practicality, not actual history, not "the outside world" -- but what seemed to be, should have been, could be, should be, never was, might have been, might be - - inspirational dreams and ideals to make us aspire to their vision, not just settle for what is actually possible.

    The patriotic dream and ideal of America is an instrinsic part of Walt Disney's personal idealism and vision for Disneyland (and his entire body of work). Much as they try, it really can't be separated...

    Don't forget - - even "it's small world" is placed in Fantasyland - no accident or irony I'll wager...
    Very well said- you took the words out of my mouth
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  8. #53

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    O beautiful for spacious skies,
    For amber waves of grain,
    For purple mountain majesties
    Above the fruited plain!
    America! America!
    God shed his grace on thee
    And crown thy good with brotherhood
    From sea to shining sea!


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  9. #54

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    Jingoistic nationalism can be a very bad thing, just as patriotism can be a good thing.

    Europeans have spent centuries fighting each other and establishing rivalries with each other over in almost every facet of life and culture. And, most of these conflicts were in some way based on beliefs in the superiority of one nationality over another.

    Americans just think very differently. Americans are not nearly as monolithic with their culture, and they are perhaps more naive to the dangers of nationalism. But, Europeans and people from other countries are also mistaken to consider the U.S. as just another country. The nature of the place is fundamentally different. And, the concept of "nationality" here is also not quite the same as that found in other places around the world.

    Americans are a plethora of peoples all bound together by ideals and not necessarily by geography.

  10. #55

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    Re: Disneyland - first ever visit from a dutch perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Thriller
    Now I am not sure what your goal was with this post, but if it was to provoke me - I'm not biting. I'm willing to discuss the likes and dislikes of this patriotism thing, but I don't think this is the right place. If you want to discuss, open up a topic in the lounge or something, and I'll see you there.

    I didn't want this topic to turn into this huge America-discussion, and perhaps I should have taken better care of what I say and adept to the audience more. Either way, again, I'm willing to discuss, but in the proper place
    Well said, Thriller. All the same, you have also ...perhaps unintentionally... sparked a lively discussion right here that, if it manages to stay on topic , has allowed us to examine some of the philosophy behind the themes found in Disneyland. A whole lot of what Disneyland is about goes far beyond rides and merchandising. That is what is interesting to me, at least.

    BTW... We'll be at Tivoli Gardens next Saturday. It will be fascinating to compare.
    "Yesterday, a man walked up to me and said, 'Isn't it a shame that Walt Disney couldn't be here to see this?' and I said, "He did see this, that's why it's here."
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