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  1. #1

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    Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    Video Presentation: http://www.octa.net/articvideos/intro2m.html

    http://www.octa.net/artic.aspx

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=http:...?v=PqOZumnWNMAHong Kong Disneyland and Disneyland Paris have rail stations that are immediately adjacent to the Disney properties. So, should ARTIC be situated closer to Disneyland Resort in California, or are transfers to the Anaheim resort district sufficient?

    To me, the placement of ARTIC seems like a missed opportunity to directly connect the existing tourism components of Anaheim with Metrolink, as well as with the new rail services that are being planned.

    This map shows a second Anaheim station at Ball Road:

    http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/route/default.asp
    Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 01-19-2008 at 03:48 AM.

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    Could it be that the right of way is not the right side of the 5? There's not much opportunity for contiguous land without forced acquisition (or is there?)

    It's possibly an opportunity for a resort area wide transport that isn't road based. Dare I suggest a *sings* monorail */sings* that connects areas like the convention center, ball park, maybe The Block and The Resort area?
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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    If you noticed, there was a monorail shown briefly when they talked about the Platnum Triangle and showed that station.


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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    This is exciting, but with all the bureaucracy I think it will take longer. It would absolutely benefit California in every way.
    Los Angeles too San Francisco in 2 and half hours? WOW!

    Can you imagine, Disneyland will never have an off season if that happens. Northern Californians could go anytime.
    I'm curious how and if they could ever get some businesses, homes to close up shop too make way for this.
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  5. #5

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    While it may be a nice idea to have the train pass near the resort, I am sure the cost of buying the property to make it happen would not only cost a large fortune, it would probably take more than a lifetime to accomplish. It would be the more prudent option to use what is available. It would probably be cheaper to move Disneyland closure to the rail line than it would be to move the rail line closer to the resort.
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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    ARTIC replaces an existing commuter rail and Amtrak station on nearby City-owned property. The existing site is able of offer free parking for commuters as it's at the north end of the Anaheim Stadium (LA Angels of Anaheim) parking lot. The City runs shuttles to the station which service the Disney Resort.

    Check out the possibilities for modern, elevated monorail-like personal rapid transit in Anaheim at the Ontario and Anaheim tabs of our website: www.prtstrategies.com.


    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    Video Presentation: http://www.octa.net/articvideos/intro2m.html

    http://www.octa.net/artic.aspx

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=PqOZumnWNMAHong Kong Disneyland and Disneyland Paris have rail stations that are immediately adjacent to the Disney properties. So, should ARTIC be situated closer to Disneyland Resort in California, or are transfers to the Anaheim resort district sufficient?

    To me, the placement of ARTIC seems like a missed opportunity to directly connect the existing tourism components of Anaheim with Metrolink, as well as with the new rail services that are being planned.

    This map shows a second Anaheim station at Ball Road:

    http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/route/default.asp

  7. #7

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    Quote Originally Posted by monotonehell View Post
    Could it be that the right of way is not the right side of the 5? There's not much opportunity for contiguous land without forced acquisition (or is there?)

    It's possibly an opportunity for a resort area wide transport that isn't road based. Dare I suggest a *sings* monorail */sings* that connects areas like the convention center, ball park, maybe The Block and The Resort area?
    There is a close right of way that branches off the existing Metrolink and Amtrak lines, but I don't know who the owner is.

    The trains are passing so close to Disneyland Resort that a more direct connection seems like a viable alternative to the proposed plans. And, the 5 freeway is actually beneficial since the state already owns the land on which the highway is situated.


  8. #8

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    One of the stops is going to be in Anaheim, I remember they said that in a news broadcast a few weeks ago.


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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    They can't put multiple stops in the same town, or keep adding stops on a whim - the whole idea of high speed rail is to get the train up to high speed between stops and cover a lot of distance fairly fast. With 80 stops, it would take all day to cross the state, but a dozen are doable.

    You should have the stops placed 30 to 50 miles apart at major (or medium at most) population centers, and let regional transit systems handle the passengers from there. The high-speed would go (for example) San Diego, Anaheim, Downtown LA, San Fernanado Valley, Lancaster, Bakersfield...

    And you have to follow an existing railroad right of way, or it'll never happen from both land acquisition costs and grading/tunneling costs. Railroads have an inviolable rule in they can't do more than a 1% to 2% grade without special equipment, so the rail lines have to follow the contour of the terrain.

    It costs much less to widen an existing ROW and double-track (or triple-track for passing sidings) to allow for much more frequent train operations. Where it gets expensive is widening bridges and drilling parallel tunnels.

    Putting a Monorail or PRT (Peoplemover) style system to connect ARTIC to the Resort District would be the logical way to go - for Rapid Transit to be truly rapid it HAS to be grade seperated with it's own ROW - buses are always going to be at the mercy of traffic flow. Even seperated busways (LAMTA Orange Line) have to stop for traffic signals at the grade crossings.

    And if Cedar Fair wants to chip in for their portion of the costs, you could extend the Monorail or PRT over to Buena Park & cover KBF.

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bergman View Post
    They can't put multiple stops in the same town, or keep adding stops on a whim - the whole idea of high speed rail is to get the train up to high speed between stops and cover a lot of distance fairly fast. With 80 stops, it would take all day to cross the state, but a dozen are doable.

    You should have the stops placed 30 to 50 miles apart at major (or medium at most) population centers, and let regional transit systems handle the passengers from there. The high-speed would go (for example) San Diego, Anaheim, Downtown LA, San Fernanado Valley, Lancaster, Bakersfield...

    And you have to follow an existing railroad right of way, or it'll never happen from both land acquisition costs and grading/tunneling costs. Railroads have an inviolable rule in they can't do more than a 1% to 2% grade without special equipment, so the rail lines have to follow the contour of the terrain.

    It costs much less to widen an existing ROW and double-track (or triple-track for passing sidings) to allow for much more frequent train operations. Where it gets expensive is widening bridges and drilling parallel tunnels.

    Putting a Monorail or PRT (Peoplemover) style system to connect ARTIC to the Resort District would be the logical way to go - for Rapid Transit to be truly rapid it HAS to be grade seperated with it's own ROW - buses are always going to be at the mercy of traffic flow. Even seperated busways (LAMTA Orange Line) have to stop for traffic signals at the grade crossings.

    And if Cedar Fair wants to chip in for their portion of the costs, you could extend the Monorail or PRT over to Buena Park & cover KBF.

    --<< Bruce >>--
    Currently, the Web-site shows two stations in Anaheim: (1.) ARTIC and (2.) the Ball Road stop denoted by the blue teardrop on the map.

    The tracks in Anaheim are, naturally, designed to be grade-separated, but the potential for them to be redesigned as aerials, if necessary, does exist. Land acquisition does not seem to be much of a problem, either. If one looks at the map, he or she can see that a second set of tracks runs parallel to the proposed right-of-way for the high-speed trains. Also, the electrical lines occupy a narrow strip of land that stretches to the Pumbaa lot on the other side of the 5 freeway.

    Disney has reserved the Pumbaa lot for a parking structure to be developed at a later date, so that land, too, is available for integration with the rail system.

  11. #11

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    All I can say is this will be a great thing for our state and Disney. After I get my masters and maybe work at Disney, hopefully this technology will be there.
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  12. #12

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    There's no reason Disney couldn't operate a shuttle service to and from the station, or a monorail/peoplemover system.

  13. #13

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    This is amazing. I could even WORK at Disneyland from here if I wanted to. Isn't that nuts?

    This will be great, especially considering I will more than likely be moving down south in a little over a year and my family is still up here. It'll make trips so easy.

    But really, how much will a ticket cost?!

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  14. #14

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    Will probably be cheaper than a tank of gas to drive, as they'll have to subsidize it with tax money to make it economical enough to get people to use it - unless they seriously crank up fuel taxes to pay for it, and try to drive people to using it.

    And don't get your hopes up - this is the kind of thing that even if they started Right NOW wouldn't be up and running for at least 10 years bare minimum to get the first segments up and running, with a "Manhattan Project" class effort. More likely 20 years for final completion, because they have to:

    1. Do a ton of engineering work, and secure all the permits to widen ROW and rework roads and highways.
    2. Seperate all the grade crossings along the lines with tunnels or bridges, and close the crossings they can't seperate.
    (NO uncontrolled 'Farm Crossings' when the trains run at 200 MPH - they will have to build bridges, underpasses, or alternate access roads.)
    3. Dig miles-long trenches (ALA 'Alameda Corridor') or elevate the entire rail line on fill or trestles across miles of low areas to make the grades more even and make roadway seperations easier in urban areas and wildlife crossings easier in rural zones.
    4. Fence in the entire length of the rail line across deserts and through agricultural areas. Dig wildlife underpass crossings every quarter mile or so - having any animals wandering onto the tracks would be a disaster.
    5. Set up an electrified track catenary system or third-rail system, and the supporting power conversion and infrastructure, including power transmission lines out into the rural areas where nobody lives
    6. Upgrade all the rail lines to handle high speed traffic - all concrete ties, all welded rail, flat and level as a billiard table...
    7. Upgrade all the signalling systems to handle the speeds - When you're moving three miles a minute it takes a while to stop.

    And they have to do it all while the existing rail lines in the ROW they pick stay open to service the existing freight and passenger routes, unless they have alternate routes they can divert traffic onto. They have to do one side and open it, then rip up the old track and rework it to match.

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    Re: Why Is ARTIC Being Planned without a More Direct Connection to Disneyland Resort?

    Quote Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    Hong Kong Disneyland and Disneyland Paris have rail stations that are immediately adjacent to the Disney properties.
    Have you been to Gare de Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy?

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