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  1. #16

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    Re: An honest question

    That's just catering to an imaginary group feeling to me, monotohell.
    Last edited by TaraPiglet; 02-25-2008 at 12:28 AM.

  2. #17

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    Re: An honest question

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    Knott's still offers traditional Indian Dancing, which is done with respect and heritage, including the use of insence and other traditional rituals.

    It is held on most days, and is very interesting.

    I think I see something in the picture throwing off the theme. I have quite the eye for such things.

  3. #18

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    Re: An honest question

    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    I think I see something in the picture throwing off the theme. I have quite the eye for such things.
    Is it the guy on the left wearing sunglasses which don't match the native theme of the giant light rocks?


    That's the difference between a Disney Park and Knott's *nods nods*
    Disney FAQ#275: What is DCA?
    DCA stands for Disney Construction Area. All the Cast Members are themed with hard hats and steel toed boots.

  4. #19

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    Re: An honest question

    I would like to see it.. if done accurately and correctly, there isn't any room for dissent.

    Location would be a problem.....


    I would LOVE to see an Indian V. Pirate War.
    All your dreams can come true if you have the courage to pursue them. - Walt Disney


  5. #20

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    Re: An honest question

    Even if DL were to reinstate an accurate Native American attraction in the way it was originally presented, it would still be stereotypical. Not all Native Americans lived in teepees and wore elaborate clothing and head dresses. The local Indians to DL for example definitely did not live this way. And interestingly some aspects of the religion of the local Indians were similar to Chrisitanity which is a major reason why there was never that much physical conflict with the Spanish settlers. And a major reason how the Spanish were more easily able to convert them to Christianity than with other tribes in other regions of the country and make them build the missions without much conflict. It is only now in today's world of political correctness that the issue of enslavement of the local Indians has been brought up (fuled by the canonization efforts for Junipero Serra)

    I think depicting Native Americans at DL solely as Plains Indians only does much disrespect to their culture becuase not all Indians were like that, taking California Indians into consideration.

  6. #21

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    Re: An honest question

    As cool as the idea of an Indian Village sounds, I don't know if it could really be executed well. I'm sure to many, the idea of an Indian Village in a theme park sounds disrespectful enough and it would be extremely difficult to separate the entertainment from the education. With how disrespectful some people are today, I cringe just thinking about how some guests might react.

  7. #22

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    Re: An honest question

    If they added back the Village, would it have to have a casino?

  8. #23

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    Re: An honest question

    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
    Even if DL were to reinstate an accurate Native American attraction in the way it was originally presented, it would still be stereotypical. Not all Native Americans lived in teepees and wore elaborate clothing and head dresses.
    So ALL need representation, then? Guess we better schedule another IASW refurb, since Kosovo delared their independence. They aren't currently being represented!! Horrors!!
    The local Indians to DL for example definitely did not live this way.
    While you have the ol' refurb schedule out and handy--better put the WFJC down, too--after all, not all African tribes were war-like; not all tribes were headhunters, either--those poor forgotten ones need 'representation'. No pygmies!! Outrage!! Unfair!!

    I think depicting Native Americans at DL solely as Plains Indians only does much disrespect to their culture becuase not all Indians were like that, taking California Indians into consideration
    It's this type of thinking, IMO, that creates 'paralysis by analysis', and explains why precious little is produced by Disney nowadays but homogenized pablum all can safely and efficiently digest.

  9. #24

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    Re: An honest question

    Quote Originally Posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    So ALL need representation, then? Guess we better schedule another IASW refurb, since Kosovo delared their independence. They aren't currently being represented!! Horrors!!
    Great point. People are quick to forgot that most of Disneyland's lands are sensationalized versions of their real life counterparts and are easily considered stereotypes. Main St is inspired by Marceline, MO but in reality it's an extremely stylized representation. It's what we think of when we hear about a turn of the century town. It can easily be called stereotypical.

    So what's wrong with thinking of teepees when we think of Indians? It cracks me up when some people claim to love the escapism of DL and then complain that the Indian Village wasn't realistic.

  10. #25

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    Re: An honest question

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbeer View Post
    Knott's still offers traditional Indian Dancing, which is done with respect and heritage, including the use of insence and other traditional rituals.

    It is held on most days, and is very interesting.

    These Native Americans have a very "south of the Border" look to me.

    What is interesting about this is that these sort of shows are quite common in Mexico. Of course, there is no Aztec nation in Mexico anymore (in fact, there are no reservations/nations at all) , so I suppose that means that there is no one to be offended with the use of a religious ceremony as entertainment. Performers in these just tend to be your run of the mill Mexicans.

  11. #26

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    Re: An honest question

    Quote Originally Posted by fkurucz View Post
    These Native Americans have a very "south of the Border" look to me.

    What is interesting about this is that these sort of shows are quite common in Mexico. Of course, there is no Aztec nation in Mexico anymore (in fact, there are no reservations/nations at all) , so I suppose that means that there is no one to be offended with the use of a religious ceremony as entertainment. Performers in these just tend to be your run of the mill Mexicans.

    I was JUST going to say that.

    I personally wouldn't have a problem with bringing it back. It is history, after all. As long as Disney hires INDIANS for the jobs then we should be fine. Those proud of their culture would not take a job where ther are about to sell it out.

    BTW, this recent PCing of Indians to Native Americans drives me NUTS. I'm 1/4 of about 3 tribes mainly Cherokee and I have NO problem with being called Indian. Neither does my grandmother who is half nor I hear my great-grandmother who was full. Or my cousin for that matter, he worked in the parks as a dancer and he doesn't mind at all. Yes I understand the Indians are from India arguement, but we've been calling these people something for how long and now all of a sudden we're not allowed to...sheesh.

    anyway off my soapbox.


  12. #27

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    Re: An honest question [Indian Village]

    Like I said I am not sure if this would even be possible in modern society. I think I over-extended my question by including "village" when I should have specified the ceremonial circle itself. In fact it would be entirely possible to have 2 circles, one for Frontierland and one for Critter Country. I honestly think it would help tie in a lot of CC (minus Pooh... nothing helps Pooh sorry) and explain why animals "talk".

    I have attended a lot of different ceremonies from a variety of cultures, cultural experiences in any context are amazing! I was fortunate enough to attend Buddhist ceremonies, Hindu, Shinto, Jewish, Muslim, Christian/Catholic, Jewish (I am not Jewish but through a contact was actually allowed in an orthodox temple as well)... as well as traditional Native American from several tribes in CA, NM, AZ,CO, and UT. I tend to shock people because I am so curious... it's just that childhood curiosity in me, and I credit some of it to my parents willingness to take me to cultural events as a child. I really think that if it was done correctly, and respectfully, it would be a very memorable experience.

    My requirement would be traditional ceremonies as well as an explanation of what is being done prior to starting a ceremony. This would require the attention and respect of the audience which could be problematic when you consider things like language barriers. Walt took the time to ensure what was presented was authentic, and Disney should do no less. Also I would love to see a variety, tribes had their own ceremonies, languages, and traditions... something like this could break the stereotypical image of Native Americans.

    As to the FBI comment... I have known a lot who prefer the term Native American, with the common comment "I'm not from India, I'm a (insert tribe name here)"

    When you really think about it... how amazing would it be to learn portions of another language, take pictures of traditional dress, hear traditional music, see traditional dances, possibly hear the oral traditions and legends of a variety of tribes... to get more then just "we saw a show"... to have an actual experience... that was my point.
    Last edited by techskip; 02-25-2008 at 12:31 PM.
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  13. #28

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    Re: An honest question [Indian Village]

    As one who visited the original Indian Village a number of times, I can tell you that it awakened a lifelong interest and respect for their cultures. The tribes who were there were willing to answer questions about their culture and it was when I first became aware of the fact that there were different tribes. Hey, I was very young.
    I doubt it will apeal to the ipod, you tube teenagers, but younger children might, like me, find it a wonderful introduction to a different way of life.

  14. #29

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    Re: An honest question [Indian Village]

    Don't be so sure, Ipod youtube teenagers are a lot more aware than people give them credit sometimes. Regardless, bring back the Indian Village, it doesn't have to perfect, just make it great and respectful. If you want, have two or three different styles of native architecture or dance, or focus on one. Then put some cowboys, pioneers, trappers, and miners throughout Frontierland and we'll be looking more and more like the Old West.
    "I have blind faith in the policy that quality, tempered with good judgment and showmanship, will win against all odds." -- Walt Disney
    "Quality is a great business plan. -- John Lasseter

  15. #30

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    Re: An honest question [Indian Village]

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    I strongly debated with myself if I should post this or not. I feel it is a topic usually avoided, and I wished to ask it head on. Here is a passage from Davelandweb
    link for this page is http://www.davelandweb.com/indianvillage/

    I honestly believe that a Native American dance circle is needed in either Frontierland or Critter Country. I realize that Frontierland's theme was a 1950's Cowboys vs Indians style... and actually feel that due to this the circle would be more appropriate in Critter Country. Mainly because the belief in animal spirits could greatly increase the theme, and explain the "talking animals" in a way that would be considered purely magical.
    Eww. That entire "native people are all magical and in touch with nature" stereotype is just as offensive as the "noble savage" stereotype.

    Native peoples do not believe in anthropomorphized "magical critters" that sing and dance in English for entertainment. To equate cartoon figures to real animals and their spirits is naive and insulting.

    Native peoples are real flesh and blood living people, not invented caricatures and stereotypes. Their cultures are like any other human culture - complex and nuanced, not simplistic and easily categorized.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    In this politically correct society... is it possible to present honest representations of the Native American culture without offending anyone, and without displaying the tragedies that occurred in our nations history?
    Your question is problematic because it not only characterizes American society as "politically correct" (which is laughable in its ignorance), but also seeks to do two diametrically opposed things - present Native culture, but in a way that either eliminates or ignores the elephant in the room - the genocide of Native peoples of the Americas. I don't think this sort of preliminary expectation is really appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    A lot happened, I am not ignoring that,
    I think you're trying to. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. You're basically saying "let's bring back the Indian Village but make it all touchy-feely and honest, yet be dishonest by not talking about the bad stuff that White people did to Native people, since it might make the White people feel bad" and worse, you're using children as a excuse. Why should children be lied to about history? I can understand your desire to not focus on the more violent aspects of European/Native interaction, but why lie to kids (presumably non-Native kids, who more often than not learn the truth from their families)? Besides that, why assume that any sort of presentation of Native culture is necessarily going to involve discussion or presentation of massacres and the overall genocide of Native peoples?

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    but I do not feel a discussion of horrific events is appropriate for little ones, or belongs within the berm of Disneyland.
    Again, why assume that a presentation of Native cultures is going to involve discussion of horrific events? Honesty about history need not be a graphic representation of historical fact. Example - Pirates of the Caribbean. Pirates in the Caribbean routinely raped, pillaged, looted, and murdered, but any killings presented on the ride are bloodless, pillaging and looting are turned into fun activities (which they no doubt were from the pirate POV), and depictions of rape are non-existent. The outlaw nature of the pirates, however, is never denied.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    So... is it possible to bring back the beloved "Indian Village", or should it remain in the past? ... This is a pure and simple question. Would it be possible for Disneyland to bring back the Indian Village; to keep it family friendly, to accurately represent the respective cultures, most important to not offend the parties involved... or should it remain in the past. Please attempt to stay on topic.
    If it were primarily a celebration of Native cultures, sure, it could be done. Honesty about the clash of European and Native cultures is important to keep in mind, but it also doesn't need to be overemphasized, nor does any presentation or mention of it need to be graphic.

    I'd like to see an Indian Village return (to Frontierland) too, and I like the idea of revolving tribal representation, so park guests can get an ever-changing exposure to various Native cultures. It could be something like the Gathering of Nations Pow-Wow which is held annually in New Mexico.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<obje...mbed></object>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<obje...mbed></object>At the same time, however, I don't think that there should be any particular onus for Disneyland or the tribes involved to gloss over or ignore historical reality. Given the space limitations of Frontierland as it is, it's unlikely that there'd be any sort of presentation that would be centered on massacres or other atrocities committed during the genocide of Native peoples, anyway. What would be honorable and a wonderful way to show respect would be to provide some space for a Native bookstore, where books, CDs, and DVDs related to Native cultures, including fiction, art, music, food, religion, politics, and (of course) history could be sold.

    Walt clearly stated that one thing Disneyland was dedicated to was "the hard facts that have created America." How can you truly express that sort of dedication if you're willing to eliminate, gloss over, or ignore an extremely hard fact of American history?

    I think a newer kind of Indian Village, one that was a greater celebration of Native cultures, would be awesome and could potentially make Frontierland an extremely popular land.

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