Save the Rainforest - Keep "it's a small world" a classic.

[MasterGracey]

Originally Posted by mousechild

Trying to decide what is art is a philosophical discussion that could easily swamp this board. Enough books have been written about this subject to fill IASW building. The amount of hot air expelled on the subject is probably a leading cause of global warming. Suffice it to say that we can't answer that question here.

The Disneyland universe is pretty small, and there is still room for disagreement on what is art and what is kitsch within the Disneyland Fan universe. While many may appreciate IASW it is quite possible that as many or more see IASW as nothing more than a bad 3-D cartoon. I am not a big fan of IASW, I am against the addition of Disney characters, not because it will harm a wonderful ride, but because the wanton addition of Disney characters to rides is a bad trend that seemingly will continue unabated until the park is unrecognizable.

The recent addition of Pixar characters to the Subs is just one more step along the path. But as far as art goes IMHO IASW is barely art, yet I still like Disneyland.

I would say that Mary Blair's style, creations, and "it's a small world" fit the definition of "art" pretty well.

[penguinsoda]

Originally Posted by Club 33 Mike

Funny to think that the minds at Disney can be changed by a group of hard core Disney fanatics that probably make up way less than 1% of that parks attendance. Online pettitions, blogs, and emails wont do anything.

Does anyone actually think that Disney would stop whatever changes they are making right in the middle of the project, and reverse course? These changes have been planned for a long time, and for them to now change would surely mean they wouldnt be able to reopen the ride for the holidays.

*******

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead

Save Disney anyone? So maybe it won't have a bit impact on the future of the attraction, maybe the die is cast and its to late to make any changes, but seriously... what is it going to hurt if those opposed to the potential changes make their opinions and voices heard??

Those of us who care and who want the powers that be to know our feelings will let them know. We're not hurting anyone else, we're not insisting everyone think our way, we just want to try... thats all. It will be our time used, and anyone who doesn't want to participate, need not join.

[Anatole69]

According to that definition, then, works designed to be appreciated primarily by the intellect and not the emotions, would not qualify as art. Nor work intended to be jarring, or discordant.

So punk music, or challenging poetry, or absurdists playwrights... or any artist who creates work that appeals to a critical viewer... is not art.

Ha ha... for many scholars, that is what seperates kitsch from art. The visceral and the cereberal.

While that definition qualifies IASW as art, I feel it is a little lacking.

- Anatole

[techskip]

Something to note... the only way to change a public company from the outside is to sway the public opinion. While Micechat has a rather robust following and has been on the news... it still doesn't have that kind of clout. It really doesn't matter how we feel, we can voice our concerns over and over and over... not gonna mean much unless the PUBLIC changes their opinion. For anyone who disagrees with me I'd like to see a current trip report (made within the last week) of a visit to the Disney Gallery... too tough? how about a current trip report from Mr. Lincoln's show? because we all protested the departure of both of those.

[Anatole69]

Do we have concept art for the proposed new scene?

Protesting it blindly is like protesting a movie you have never seen, or a book you have never read.

Also, that re-imagineering blog is a little reactionary, IMO. I'm all for calling a company on it's mistakes, but it seems like that blog has a real slant. Just my take on it.

- Anatole

[MasterGracey]

Originally Posted by Anatole69

According to that definition, then, works designed to be appreciated primarily by the intellect and not the emotions, would not qualify as art. Nor work intended to be jarring, or discordant.

So punk music, or challenging poetry, or absurdists playwrights... or any artist who creates work that appeals to a critical viewer... is not art.

Ha ha... for many scholars, that is what seperates kitsch from art. The visceral and the cereberal.

While that definition qualifies IASW as art, I feel it is a little lacking.

- Anatole

Well, there's more to the definition, and it includes music, literature, and theatre, as well

Originally Posted by techskip

Something to note... the only way to change a public company from the outside is to sway the public opinion. While Micechat has a rather robust following and has been on the news... it still doesn't have that kind of clout. It really doesn't matter how we feel, we can voice our concerns over and over and over... not gonna mean much unless the PUBLIC changes their opinion. For anyone who disagrees with me I'd like to see a current trip report (made within the last week) of a visit to the Disney Gallery... too tough? how about a current trip report from Mr. Lincoln's show? because we all protested the departure of both of those.

Well, my friend, you've got to start somewhere, right?

[Anatole69]

Also in addition to writing the company, you guys should be sending out press releases to sympathetic news organizations.

I could totally see NPR doing a piece on this, if you were to frame it in the right way.

- Anatole

[The International]

There are 17,000 members here, half of whom have zero posts. So, 8,000 people (roughly) with at least one post. If a fourth of those choose to write or call (which I think is a much higher estimate than the number of people who will actually contact Disney about the changes) you have 2,000 people complaining... all of which would all fit on iasw in less than two hours. So yeah, it's not exactly a sizable number and probably won't inspire Disney to change things, given that busy days see 50,000+ people walking through Disneyland's gates.

[fo'c's'le swab]

Originally Posted by penguinsoda

Those of us who care and who want the powers that be to know our feelings will let them know. We're not hurting anyone else, we're not insisting everyone think our way, we just want to try... thats all. It will be our time used, and anyone who doesn't want to participate, need not join.

Good post, P. It's ironic that some who criticize and ridicule those who choose to speak out against what is distasteful to them, are the same posters who time and time again seek out 'theme' threads in order to speak out against what is distasteful to them.

[Anatole69]

Ahh... I couldn't get it to scroll down. Thank for posting all of it.

I still say it is too broad a definition of art and makes no distinction between high art and low art. High art being aimed at the critical factor, and low art being aimed at the emotions. That's how you get the distinction between art and kitsch.

Not that this is a bad thing, because postmoderism then blurred the distinction between high and low art, critical art and mass produced art.

I bring this up to show how hard it is to define art, like someone else in the thread pointed out there have been piles of books devoted to the subject and unfortunately just finding an online definition in a dictionary won't really settle the debate.

- Anatole

[The International]

That's more hypocritical than ironic. And by all means, voice your concerns to Disney. I'd expect that since the changes aren't concrete by this point a flood of complaints might actually affect the outcome.

[MasterGracey]

Originally Posted by Anatole69

Do we have concept art for the proposed new scene?

Protesting it blindly is like protesting a movie you have never seen, or a book you have never read.

Also, that re-imagineering blog is a little reactionary, IMO. I'm all for calling a company on it's mistakes, but it seems like that blog has a real slant. Just my take on it.

- Anatole

Since Disney doesn't release much concept art, especially for a lot of controversial additions, what, then do we work from?

Until Disney starts stepping up and giving us adequate glimpses into the projects they're developing, then we have to go off leaked info from Lutz and others.

Walt Disney used to give the public a look at his projects all the time. Not only did it stir interest, but likely, he was able to learn from the public's reaction and see what might need to be changed or re-worked.

Disney likes to keep fans in the dark these days for the sake of "preserving the magic" and then ignore the fans -- the people paying the bills -- if the fans don't like the idea or product.

[Anatole69]

Ahh writing the company should be the core of the campaign, but you really need to get some press coverage behind this.

And again, has anyone seen any concept art for the changes? Unless you can claim to know what it will look like, you risk looking like a bunch of reactionary internet Disney freaks. lol.

- Anatole

[Anatole69]

Yeah, I know... then you need to frame that as part of the campaign, or else it will be part of the argument against your campaign.

Not sure how you can frame it, just pointing out that you need to call out the elephant in the room before the other side does.

- Anatole

[aashee]

Yup, change is impossible. I pretty sure that what's this country was founded upon.