Trolley Car Troubles

[Steve DeGaetano]

What's wrong with powering it by magnetic induction and having the overhead lines exist as eye candy?

Not sure what you're asking. No matter what type of electric motor you use, it's going to have to get it's power from someplace. You basically have three choices: Batteries, energized rails and overhead.

The amount of batteries necessary to move such a large loaded vehicle all day long will preclude having an authentic seating arrangement--space will be needed for batteries, and they will add weight to the car. Energized rails will kill pedestrians. Period. Overhead is safe, efficient, and will allow for accurate historical detail.

[Steve DeGaetano]

You can duplicate the controls and still power the car via electricity

How?

[Steve DeGaetano]

Thanks also for the Ethanol tidbit, I was not aware of that either.

I should correct my previous statement: The Model T engine was actually one of the first "flex-fuel" engines, because it could run on gasoline too. But Ford was a huge proponent of bio fuels, and foresaw ethanol eventually becoming the predominant motor fuel.

[techskip]

Not sure what you're asking. No matter what type of electic motor you use, it's going to have to get it's power from someplace. You bascially have three choices: Batteries, energized rails and overhead.

The amount of batteries necesssary to move such a large loaded vehicle all day long will preclude having an authentic seating arrangement--space will be needed for batteries, and they will add weight to the car. Energized rails will kill pedestrians. Perid. Overhead is safe, efficient, and will allow for accurate historical detail.

Completely random thought... but why would the authentic seating arrangement need to be adjusted? Why is it required that the batteries be in the main cab? Again no expertise and no clue. One thing to consider though is that the batteries will add to the weight substantially, and therefore the amount of batteries needed may increase as the weight of those batteries is factored into the actual load weight.

How?

Same way you add the same controls to an electric car vs a gasoline powered one. You can add the same controls, forward, reverse (good coverage on PBS of the New Orleans Line) and have the poles tied to it even if there isn't any power up above. Again not an expert but the controls should not have any relation to the power source other then raising or lowering the pole!

I should correct my previous statement: The Model T engine was actually one of the first "flex-fuel" engines, because it could run on gasoline too. But Ford was a huge proponent of bio fuels, and foresaw ethanol eventually becoming the predominant motor fuel.

Cool

[Steve DeGaetano]

Completely random thought... but why would the authentic seating arrangement need to be adjusted? Why is it required that the batteries be in the main cab?

Because there isn't a huge amount of space (read "none") between the underframe and the floor. And you'd need a HUGE amount of batteries. And those batteries would need to be placed somewhere.

I suspect that the reason that the seating of the Jolly Trolley--two bench seats on either side of a large "hump" that ran the length of the trolley--hid the batteries.

Same way you add the same controls to an electric car vs a gasoline powered one. You can add the same controls, forward, reverse

My question didn't pertain to how controls could be re-created. It referred to your statement that the trolley could still be powered electrically. Again...How?

[MrLiver]

My question didn't pertain to how controls could be re-created. It referred to your statement that the trolley could still be powered electrically. Again...How?

I didn't read this whole thread and I have no technical expertise at all, but if the problem is using electricity to power the trolleys, why not employee something similar to the technology being used on the subs? Why couldn't they have some kind of interface that would charge the batteries while the vehicles are in the station for a couple minutes?

If it's good enough for a submarine why not a streetcar?

I'm really against the use of the overhead electric lines. I think it would be too much of a visual intrusion. There were enough complaints about visible power lines when DCA opened.

[techskip]

Because there isn't a huge amount of space (read "none") between the underframe and the floor. And you'd need a HUGE amount of batteries. And those batteries would need to be placed somewhere.

I suspect that the reason that the seating of the Jolly Trolley--two bench seats on either side of a large "hump" that ran the length of the trolley--hid the batteries.

What about hiding the battery banks within the frame, in other words adding to the height and seating the actual cab above the frame. (Like the hulls in Jungle where you are technically above the bildge but your floor and the actual floor are two different things!

My question didn't pertain to how controls could be re-created. It referred to your statement that the trolley could still be powered electrically. Again...How?

The last time I checked a completely electric car didn't have that wonderful pole you see in "Back to the Future"... the trolley needs electricity, but it is not confined to a specific way of getting it.

[fo'c's'le swab]

You can duplicate the controls and still power the car via electricity without needing it to be supplied via overhead wire.

How?

Mr. Fusion.

Stop selling mylar balloons, or install Mr. Fusion. I am a problem-solving machine (powered by Mr. Fusion, incidentally).

[techskip]

I think since there is a requirement for the overhead lines to be real there should also be a requirement for the handlebar mustache... Swab I leave that detail to you!

[Steve DeGaetano]

Interesting fun fact: Nixon's dad was a motorman on the Red Cars.

[MrLiver]

Nixon had a DAD? Amazing!

[Bruce Bergman]

I didn't read this whole thread and I have no technical expertise at all, but if the problem is using electricity to power the trolleys, why not employee something similar to the technology being used on the subs? Why couldn't they have some kind of interface that would charge the batteries while the vehicles are in the station for a couple minutes? If it's good enough for a submarine why not a streetcar?

You could certainly use a continuous track system with the Wampfler Inductive Coupling system like they have on the Subs to provide power all the way around - but those trolley tracks are also exposed to the public. People who don't understand technology are often irrationally scared of it.

And the same people who freak out about having a cellphone tower in their neighborhood and all the "radio-ation!" it emits (never mind that the emissions drop off logarythmically from the antenna, as long as you are 50' away from the output "lobe" it's safe) would go ballistic after learning their two-year-old was wandering around directly over a high energy electro-magnetic field...

Heaven forbid they park an umbrella stroller over the tracks, and the loosely bonded tubes couple some RF from the Wampfler coils and buzz or get a bit warm - they would accuse Disney of trying to 'cook their kids'...

Face it Techy, You Can Not Win This One. A properly designed overhead catenary system is still the safest way to go. You aren't the first one to question the system, and the alternatives are worse.

And the most critical point: If someone drops their wallet or purse on the tracks the signal could erase the Mag Stripes on the credit cards just enough to make them unreadable. And Disney will never do ANYTHING that could compromise the Guests ability to spend mass amounts of money in the parks.

What about hiding the battery banks within the frame, in other words adding to the height and seating the actual cab above the frame. (Like the hulls in Jungle where you are technically above the bilge but your floor and the actual floor are two different things!

Even with a Wampfler charger plate at each stopping point like at The Grove, you would still need the equivalent of fifty car batteries hidden on the trolley. Under the seats would work, but then you have to lock the access doors on each seat to keep kids out. And boxed seat bases aren't period accurate - the seats had space underneath for packages and luggage, and "reversible" seat backs.

Raising the floor of the train another 14" to make a secret compartment for batteries wouldn't "hide" the batteries, it would blow the visual effect of a scale train - radically obvious to even a casual observer. And you would need hatches in the floor for service accss, unless you want to take the entire train apart.

They could put the batteries in a big box underslung below the chassis between the trucks, but that would make a big and obvious "possum belly" under the coach. People would know. And they would have to support the box on a lift and remove it from the train to service the batteries, big maintenance nightmare. They can't fill batteries from the bottom, have to be able to get to the top.

The last time I checked a completely electric car didn't have that wonderful pole you see in "Back to the Future"... the trolley needs electricity, but it is not confined to a specific way of getting it.

But the 1955 version of the BTTF DeLorean didn't need the pole for propulsion power, it had a gasoline engine to reach 88 MPH. The pole was to channel the lightning strike energy from the clock tower, through the banner, to the car and the broken Flux Capacitor system, to give it the 33 Gigawatt kick through time.

Oh, and I have a Mr. Fusion... They disguised it as a Krups Type 57 coffee grinder, but we know better.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Steve DeGaetano]

I'm really against the use of the overhead electric lines. I think it would be too much of a visual intrusion. There were enough complaints about visible power lines when DCA opened.

Don't kid us, Liver. If it was the cheapest way to go, you'd embrace it in a heartbeat.

Besides...it's not visual intrusion. It's highly period and "immersive" detail...for people who appreciate such things. A delicate spider's web of commerce and suburbia powering the cars that linked the communities of Southern California together into a massive megalopolis.

You don't have wires, you don't have trolleys. You have buses.

[techskip]

Face it Techy

Was that directed at me or Liver?

Even with a Wampfler charger plate at each stopping point like at The Grove, you would still need the equivalent of fifty car batteries hidden on the trolley. Under the seats would work, but then you have to lock the access doors on each seat to keep kids out. And boxed seat bases aren't period accurate - the seats had space underneath for packages and luggage, and "reversible" seat backs.

Raising the floor of the train another 14" to make a secret compartment for batteries wouldn't "hide" the batteries, it would blow the visual effect of a scale train - radically obvious to even a casual observer. And you would need hatches in the floor for service accss, unless you want to take the entire train apart.

Not a rocket scientist but I do have experience in false floors... split the difference. 7in above, 7in below with removable floor panels that allow access to the banks. If done correctly the floor panels could be beneath the actual seats and the "panels" could run the grooves of the wood floor! This would allow you to remove the row of seats and panel in one piece!

Don't kid us, Liver. If it was the cheapest way to go, you'd embrace it in a heartbeat.

Is this an admission that the cheapest alternative may not be to run power via overhead lines? I honestly have no clue which will cost more.

As to the "eyesore" comment, it depends. If they do it period authentic as you are suggesting then it will be an eyesore. If they dress it up and make it look nice then it would look better and more modern but would not be authentic

[Steve DeGaetano]

If they do it period authentic as you are suggesting then it will be an eyesore.

To you.

Again, some will be able to appreciate it, and then there will be the others...