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  1. #46

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Nautilus View Post
    What? The trolleys, I think, will run off batterys.
    Not sure batteries are the solution. To power a Red Car--even if not full size--will require LOTS of batteries, and I'm not sure where all these would be stored without affecting the seating arrangements.

    Again, the simplest, most elegant solution, as developed by Sprague, is an overhead trolley wire. Why mess with success?

  2. #47

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Why don't they just use the same system they use to power the submarines. im sure the subs and a trolly probably would take the same amount of energy to power when u take into consideration the water pressure on the subs.


  3. #48

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    I'm curious now: why would mylar and live overhead wires at DLR cause no problem, when in parts of CA mylar balloons tangled in power wires is the 3rd largest cause of outages? I know nothing about electricity. Steve, explain yourself!

    I'm very excited about this trolley system. Regardless of whether they end up using live wires or batteries and fake wires (I believe it's feasible after watching the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?"; electric car technology is actually pretty good, so I think it can be done), I think the wires should stay. Even in San Fran, where some of the public transportation (not the trolleys themselves, as discussed earlier in this thread) runs on overhead wires, the atmosphere is very... bustle-y? I think with the old fashioned architecture, it will be very effective and exciting! I remember being fascinated with both the trolleys and the electric street cars in SF when I was little, and I still am. I'll bet a lot of people who visit DCA haven't seen that kind of stuff, so I think it will an exciting environment for a lot of people!
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  4. #49

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by RumRunner31 View Post
    Try developing a tour - what a headache for something seemingly simple!
    Submitted enough jokes to know how long it takes to get all the correct signatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    I fail to see how overhead wire will get in the way of parades. That wire would have to be at least 15 feet up. How tall are the tallest floats?
    As I mentioned it would be easy enough to rig something to raise the lines anyways so this shouldn't be an issue regardless.

    As for buying old cars and rebuilding them, I'm not sure how many cars are left to be purchased. The PE was abandoned in 1961, with most of the cars being scrapped (for instance, there are only two "Tens" left, both at the Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris). Besides, the more iconic cars such as the "Tens" are really quite large (this type of car was shown in the concept drawings). These would need to be scaled down to look appropriate. The other type of car shown in the concept drawings, known as a "Hollywood" car because it was used extensively on Hollywood Boulevard, while presenting a smaller profile, is still quite large.
    Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't the San Pedro a scaled down model of the 10, I know the Seal Beach is actually a maintanence car which was larger then the 10. Likewise if they use the Horse Drawn as a scale then it shouldn't be too hard to design. They have plenty of designs at their disposal, combined those blueprints with a specific scale and then start building!

    Now, for me, one of the neatest things about Disneyland was not the fact that much of it is "fake" or manufactured; the neat thing was how much was "real." Walt could easily have settled for steam trains or a river boat to be powered with more fuel-efficient and easier to operate internal combustion engines. But no...He would only settle for authentic. I think the same thing applies here. Using electric wire to authentically power the trolleys would follow in Walt Disney's footsteps. Seeing the motorman raise and lower poles at the end of a run would only add to the authenticity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Not sure batteries are the solution. To power a Red Car--even if not full size--will require LOTS of batteries, and I'm not sure where all these would be stored without affecting the seating arrangements.

    Again, the simplest, most elegant solution, as developed by Sprague, is an overhead trolley wire. Why mess with success?
    In the event that the overhead lines are not seen as a live option, then I would think CNG would be the most viable option. The raising and lowering of the poles would be a simple effect to duplicate. Walt was all about the details, and I am in full agreement of having them be real... but if real is not possible it would be nice to cover the details and present as real an option as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    As for being "unsightly," if you've ever been in an area with overhead, it's really not an eyesore. If people think it is, it's a fair trade to have an authentic 1920s/30's cityscape--as Walt Disney would have seen it.

    I say keep it, and keep the trolleys as authentic as they can make them.
    I believe the only way to describe the lines is the word "alive" The trolleys and their respective cables added life to the city.

    I appreciate everyone attention and participation in this thread. I've seen several comments repeat themselves, but I enjoy learning. I am curious how the lines can be insulated but still conduct electricity via contact.

    However my primary question remains unanswered. How does the budget for a simple ancient form of transportation skyrocket before they have even finished designing it?
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  5. #50

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by twobluestripes View Post
    I'm curious now: why would mylar and live overhead wires at DLR cause no problem, when in parts of CA mylar balloons tangled in power wires is the 3rd largest cause of outages? I know nothing about electricity. Steve, explain yourself!
    Ever wonder why birds don't get electrocuted when they land on a live wire? Or how a man can work on a live high-voltage line if suspended by a helicopter?



    As long as whatever is touching the wire doesn't come into contact with ground (like a tower, or another line), then no problem.

    Now, I suppose the risk is slightly greater with overhead, with its attendant guy wires. But cities like San Francisco don't seem to have too much trouble with it.

  6. #51

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    However my primary question remains unanswered. How does the budget for a simple ancient form of transportation skyrocket before they have even finished designing it?
    I think questions similar to this question gets asked all the time, all over the world. It's asked it about governments, corporations, small businesses, science, city planning, theme parks, and everything in between. I'm not sure we'll ever have and answer to stuff like this, but I'll give it a shot. How about "bureaucracy"?
    "And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by" (John Masefield)



  7. #52

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Ever wonder why birds don't get electrocuted when they land on a live wire? Or how a man can work on a live high-voltage line if suspended by a helicopter?



    As long as whatever is touching the wire doesn't come into contact with ground (like a tower, or another line), then no problem.

    Now, I suppose the risk is slightly greater with overhead, with its attendant guy wires. But cities like San Francisco don't seem to have too much trouble with it.
    Then why the ban in CA on mylar balloons that apparently cause so much trouble? I still don't get it. It is because they get tangled in multiple lines?
    "And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by" (John Masefield)



  8. #53

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    As I mentioned it would be easy enough to rig something to raise the lines anyways so this shouldn't be an issue regardless.
    Actually, with overhead, being able to raise or lower it would be well nigh impossible. It needs to be taught. If the wire snakes around curves, it would definitely be permanent.

    As for the cars in San Pedro, I believe they are all full size.

    I vote against CNG. The sound of the engine would ruin any semblance of reality. Most trolley cars are dead silent except for the occasional sound of an air compressor chugging.

  9. #54

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by twobluestripes View Post
    Then why the ban in CA on mylar balloons that apparently cause so much trouble? I still don't get it. It is because they get tangled in multiple lines?
    That's definitely one of the reasons!

  10. #55

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Actually, with overhead, being able to raise or lower it would be well nigh impossible. It needs to be taught. If the wire snakes around curves, it would definitely be permanent.
    This would be while they are operating and if the parade is in fact going through there then they would likely not be operating so the rig would therefore be able to adjust the lines.

    As for the cars in San Pedro, I believe they are all full size.
    I wasn't sure, they seemed smaller then others I have seen.

    <edit> Just looked it up, they are 500's which is why they seem so much smaller http://www.sanpedro.com/spcom/redcar.htm </edit>

    I vote against CNG. The sound of the engine would ruin any semblance of reality. Most trolley cars are dead silent except for the occasional sound of an air compressor chugging.
    depends on the design.

    As to the other beautiful snapshot... what happens when someone flies a kite into an electrical line, just one line, and continues to hold on to it? Aren't they technically the reference to ground which would in turn complete the circuit?
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  11. #56

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    I thought everyone would enjoy this as well
    http://www.railwaypreservation.com/PE500s.htm
    and
    http://www.railwaypreservation.com/Trolleyphoto.htm

    What I am lacking are actual stats on the cars though
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  12. #57

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    This would be while they are operating and if the parade is in fact going through there then they would likely not be operating so the rig would therefore be able to adjust the lines.
    Overhead is permanenet infrastructure, made of heavy steel wire that needs to be stretched taught through guy wires and poles. This infrastructure is not something that can be manipulated. I'm sorry--this is just not something that can be accomplished easily--and knowing what I do about trolleys, I believe it to be impossible.

    But why does it matter? I'm pretty sure there aren't any floats tall enough to touch the wire.

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    As to the other beautiful snapshot... what happens when someone flies a kite into an electrical line, just one line, and continues to hold on to it? Aren't they technically the reference to ground which would in turn complete the circuit?
    Ah, now THAT will get you pretty hurt. I just saw a study on the Internet that said kids flying kites near high tension wires can have burns over 31% of their bodies, with much burning on the palms (although no kids had to have their hands amputated). But yes, they are touching the ground--that's the circuit.

    When Disney starts selling their mylar balloons with 15 foot long strings, then there may be problems.

  13. #58

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    I thought everyone would enjoy this as well
    http://www.railwaypreservation.com/PE500s.htm
    and
    http://www.railwaypreservation.com/Trolleyphoto.htm

    What I am lacking are actual stats on the cars though
    The San Pedro line also runs a Ten (1058, to be exact, which was converted from the one in your second link).

    What do you want on stats? I have 'em all.

  14. #59

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    The San Pedro line also runs a Ten (1058, to be exact, which was converted from the one in your second link).

    What do you want on stats? I have 'em all.
    I read about the 10, I was curious as to the actual lengths/widths of both since the 5's are supposedly smaller.

    Now to play Devil's Advocate on the string issue. I am 6'4... with my arm up that puts me around the 8.5 to 9ft mark. Average string length is 6ft... lets say I am curious, stupid to be more exact, and I make this contact between me, balloon, and trolley line... what happens?

    Or even better since I do this often. Lets say I have my kid on my shoulders, they're holding the balloon, and we make contact... what happens?

    As to the raising or lowering of the main line it requires the raising or lowering of the supports connected to the cable. The raise/lower would be a vertical movement in relation to the ground which would mean the horizontal line tension should remain the same provided all supports are moved simultaneously.
    Last edited by techskip; 04-21-2008 at 12:56 PM.
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  15. #60

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    Re: Trolley Car Troubles

    Why not have "fake" wires up ahead and use the charge while loading/battery option that the Jolly Trolley used?

    In fact, all we're getting is a non Toonified JT.

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