New-morrowland?

[Ghostbuster626]

All we are getting is a new Wall-E attraction replacing Hista before 2010 *looks around*

[mycroft16]

I think it is possible to give Tomorrowland a theme that is significantly more permanent and won't always be in a state of flux.

It needs to quit trying to be our future. That is the problem it has consistently had. By they time you get it built, it's the past. I think what they need to do is create a retro-vision of the future. This is a vision that just isn't going to happen (at least not any time in the next century at least) anytime soon. It would allow them to really stretch their imaginations and make it really far out. Colonies on the planets, all kinds of wild technology that we haven't even thought of yet, but that could kind of conceivably work out someday. If you do that, then it can retain the feeling of futuristic and tomorrow without becoming dated within months.

If they would just do this they could stop worrying about trying to keep up with next week and turn their attention to Frontierland which desperately needs it.

I think Wall-E fits into this theme rather nicely because caring for our planet is something we are always going to have to pay attention to. We may get really good at it someday, but it will still be something that we can't slack off on so that concern will always be relevant.

[fo'c's'le swab]

I think it is possible to give Tomorrowland a theme that is significantly more permanent and won't always be in a state of flux.

If you are talkin' about really changing the theme of TL, then maybe--if we are talking about mere additions to its already existing one, I don't think so. But you know me--I'm a Frontierland guy . The past is always a safer bet than the future.

[mycroft16]

You are most definitely a Frontierland guy. It's actually my favorite land in the park as well, and as much as I love NOS and Splash, I would love to see Frontierland really fleshed out again.

I am thinking in terms of total change to TL theme. More than just slapping a coat of funky burnished bronze pain on everything. I'm thinking rounded/chunky curves on things and amazing lighting and computer voices on things. Like a less cheesy and more sleek 60s future. Kind of like the Incredibles did... the whole retro feel but still modern and new. Then it could be in a time all its own and not have to constantly evolve.

[Datameister]

If you are talkin' about really changing the theme of TL, then maybe--if we are talking about mere additions to its already existing one, I don't think so.

Absolutely. Tomorrowland needs to be entirely rethought and given a very explicit and specific thematic purpose. I'm sure you would appreciate that, fo'c. It needs to know exactly what it represents, and every detail needs to reflect that. Tomorrowland's theme has historically been a rather vague concept of...well, "tomorrow." It's often been sort of a cross between a technology expo and a transportation hub. That's not good enough.

I'm a staunch advocate of a spaceport theme, especially considering that its two most permanent and enduring attractions (Space Mountain and Star Tours) are very much rooted in that concept. Tomorrowland would be a terrestrial center for flights to orbit and beyond, with transportation such as the PeopleMover Mark II (or whatever you want to call it) offering a tour of the entire "facility." If it were up to me, BLAB would be gone, but since that's unlikely to happen anytime soon, at least it almost sorta fits a little bit in the spaceport theme. Autopia is certainly a problem, but hopefully it'll be given a more future-related flavor after the Chevron sponsorship runs out. The Astro Orbitor has problems of its own, but that'll hopefully be resolved soon. And then as far as I'm concerned, FNSV marks the de facto edge of Tomorrowland, I think maps are now reflecting that. It's a Fantasyland attraction that starts with a very slightly Tomorrowlandish premise.

There's a solution to the problem of Tomorrowland continually expiring. It just needs to portray a sufficiently distant, fantastic, timeless vision of the future. Timeless visions of the future do exist. The Star Wars OT is the example I often give--while some of the special effects, hairdos, and film characteristics may hint at the late 70s/early 80s time period, the concepts themselves look every bit as futuristic and cool as anything I see in today's CGI-fests. Tomorrowland can do the same sort of thing--not necessarily an entirely Star Wars retheme, but one of similar timelessness. It can happen.

[mycroft16]

It needs to know exactly what it represents, and every detail needs to reflect that.

Bingo! You nailed that. That is what the other lands have that TL doesn't. They know exactly what they are and every detail down to the rocks and plants reinforces that knowledge.

I'm a staunch advocate of a spaceport theme, especially considering that its two most permanent and enduring attractions (Space Mountain and Star Tours) are very much rooted in that concept.

I'm very much loving this idea. Especially the PMv2.0 idea. I think it also provides for a lot of dynamic activity in the land if it is a place of "comings and goings" as a spaceport would be.

Timeless visions of the future do exist. [...] the concepts themselves look every bit as futuristic and cool as anything I see in today's CGI-fests.

Exactly. I can watch those today and be much more satisfied because the depth of the details. TL needs to have those minutiae that subconsciously tell you what the land is really about. It comes down to "why is this railing this color and made of this particular material." Those are questions that really need to be thought out because in this "future" the builders would have made those decisions as well. That kind of thought is lacking from the current TL.

[bigwavedave]

It looks like Tommorowland is slowly returning . As far asFronterland goes is there any way to ad a new attraction. If so why does it have to be an E ticket. I think if done right a good B or C ticket attraction would be really great. I honestly think that it is home to one of the best and under appriated "E" ticket rides in the park, Thunder Mountain. Maybe they should bring back the genuis who designed that one and have him do another peak type ride in that area if it has to be an "E" ticket attraction.
Back to the other end of the park, I admit I'm not a big fan of HISTA, but give it credit it seems to have staying power, and doesn't seem to be going any were. IF it does go, I love Pixar, but please no more Pixar in tommorowland unless it has to do with the John Carpenter Mar's Chronicles.

[MrLiver]

That kind of thought is lacking from the current TL.

Thematic discussions. Meh.

No matter if the theme was future expo, transportation center, spaceport or museum of past visions of the future - it will always get old, tired and boring simply because it doesn't have the history that the rest of the park does.

Tomorrowland will always be in a state of flux because it's easier for the fans and imagineers to trash something like Buzz Lightyear or Star Tours than it is to rip out Mr. Toad to put in a Pocahontas ride.

It's easier to take the most recent additions and change them. It has nothing to do with the theme of the area.

[MrLiver]

Maybe they should bring back the genuis who designed that one and have him do another peak typ ride in that area if it has to be an "E" ticket attraction.

He's too busy adding characters to Small World.

There's obviously physical space to expand Frontierland, but generally speaking the park doesn't need to expand physically anymore. The park is already a nightmare in the summer with 15 million guests per year, and expanding that past 16 or 17 million would cause a collapse of civilization as we know it. It's just not real feasible.

To that end, the only way change will come to Frontierland is if there's an underused facility that can be removed and replaced - or a way to add existing capacity to the already existing infrastructure.

Since no one wants to see Big Thunder Mountain torn up and replaced with another ride, nothing will come to the land for quite awhile.

[Datameister]

He's too busy adding characters to Small World.

We don't know that. To my knowledge, Tony Baxter hasn't made any statements, official or otherwise, endorsing the current changes.

No matter if the theme was future expo, transportation center, spaceport or museum of past visions of the future - it will always get old, tired and boring simply because it doesn't have the history that the rest of the park does.

I can see you're an optimist! With that sort of thinking, I really don't know what to say. Are you suggesting that it's not possible to build something new that's good? Disneyland didn't always have history...

There's obviously physical space to expand Frontierland, but generally speaking the park doesn't need to expand physically anymore. The park is already a nightmare in the summer with 15 million guests per year, and expanding that past 16 or 17 million would cause a collapse of civilization as we know it. It's just not real feasible.

To that end, the only way change will come to Frontierland is if there's an underused facility that can be removed and replaced - or a way to add existing capacity to the already existing infrastructure.

I'm not seeing the logic here. You're saying that bringing more guests into a larger park would be a bad idea, but bringing more guests into the park at its current size would be okay?

[MrLiver]

We don't know that. To my knowledge, Tony Baxter hasn't made any statements, official or otherwise, endorsing the current changes.

I'm pretty sure that Marty suggested that Tony was working on the project. As the senior WDI VP in charge of DL - it couldn't happen without his endorsement.

I can see you're an optimist! With that sort of thinking, I really don't know what to say. Are you suggesting that it's not possible to build something new that's good? Disneyland didn't always have history...

A ride or attraction would have to be REALLY good for it to stand up against nostalgia.

Let's say you're a Disney exec and you need to put a new attraction in the park. You can't expand the park outward and you have to reuse an existing facility as best you can. That basically means you have to take a ride out to put in a new one.

If you ask this question to people here on MiceChat you're going to get a majority of answers along the lines of HISTA, Peoplemover, Star Tours, Innoventions and maybe even some people who say the Subs and Buzz. They're all in Tomorrowland.

Let's say hypothetically that in 10 years time Tomorrowland is completely fixed, with the best of the best E tickets in every corner of the land.

Where is the next ride going to go? Are you going to take out an attraction in Fantasyland to add something new? Are you going to rip out Big Thunder or Splash Mountain to build something new? Too much of the park is seen as untouchable - with the exception of Tomorrowland.

I'm not seeing the logic here. You're saying that bringing more guests into a larger park would be a bad idea, but bringing more guests into the park at its current size would be okay?

The infrastructure of the park is at capacity. Adding new attractions is not a function of bringing in new guests as much as it is decreasing the rate of decline from attrition and keeping attendance stable.

Sure on some level it makes sense that adding a new land would increase capacity - but then you can only cram so many people down Main Street at the end of the night. You can only have so many people watching the fireworks in the hub and so many people watching Fantasmic.

At some point adding new attractions does not add to the overall guest experience. At a certain point there will be so many people in the park that not everyone gets to ride Pirates or Mansion or even see the fireworks. The return on investment is really low and the cost to expand is really high.

[mycroft16]

No matter if the theme was future expo, transportation center, spaceport or museum of past visions of the future - it will always get old, tired and boring simply because it doesn't have the history that the rest of the park does.

Tomorrowland has been around since opening day. It has the same amount of history that the rest of the park does. More than some areas. The problem is that these other lands have had a cohesive THEME since they opened. Tomorrowland has not. The theme and ideas behind that theme have changed throughout the years as they have tried to keep up with tomorrow. This is the problem. The real world ideas they are basing the theme off of are constantly changing so the land is constantly having to change as well. History has got nothing to do with it at all.

Tomorrowland will always be in a state of flux because it's easier for the fans and imagineers to trash something like Buzz Lightyear or Star Tours than it is to rip out Mr. Toad to put in a Pocahontas ride.

This goes back to what I said just above... because the theme had to change constantly to keep up, so did the rides. If the theme didn't have to change all the time, the rides wouldn't have either and you'd have the same kind of thing that exists with Mr. Toad for the Monsanto Hall of Chemistry.

It's easier to take the most recent additions and change them. It has nothing to do with the theme of the area.

I disagree. It was not easy to take Pirates, HM, Splash, Indy, etc. and change them when they were new. This is because they had incredibly cohesive themes that fit very well into the locations they were placed in. They have thematic details that reinforce the story they tell. Here again, it is THEME that matters, not age.

[bigwavedave]

Here is a thought as far as additions to the park I think A-C would be ok and they would take little space. In Frontierland why not put some version of the Abrham Lincoln show there and leave the Walt Storey on Main Street. I think Mr. Liver is right there is a lack of space for anymore large E ticket rides. I would like to see some well thought out B or C Ticket attractions, and Fronterland could problely use something like that.
Wasn't the Rocket ride considered a C ticket. I think Putting it up again would be a step in the right direction. As for E Ticket rides, I think what ever goes back on the people mover tracks will be the last of that for Daisneyland.

[Datameister]

I'm pretty sure that Marty suggested that Tony was working on the project.

True, though we've heard nothing from Tony directly, and when he showed a group of us some of the stuff they're working on for it, he said nothing to indicate approval or lack thereof. He was quite neutral in terms of tone.

As the senior WDI VP in charge of DL - it couldn't happen without his endorsement.

Not true. Plenty of projects can happen without his involvement or direct endorsement. He's in charge of the overall creative direction of the park, not with micromanaging or even with approving every change, I believe.

Where is the next ride going to go? Are you going to take out an attraction in Fantasyland to add something new? Are you going to rip out Big Thunder or Splash Mountain to build something new? Too much of the park is seen as untouchable - with the exception of Tomorrowland.

I see your point. But you're forgetting about the north side of the Pirates' Lair/Tom Sawyer Island, the Festival of Fools arena and its environs, and the motor boat cruise lagoon area. All are viable locations for new attractions. And the Fantasyland Theater is a large yet rather minor and easily removed facility, so that area could be used as well.

At some point adding new attractions does not add to the overall guest experience. At a certain point there will be so many people in the park that not everyone gets to ride Pirates or Mansion or even see the fireworks. The return on investment is really low and the cost to expand is really high.

That I agree on entirely. I just didn't understand why you seemed to be saying that it was okay to replace existing attractions with new ones, since that would present at least as great a capacity problem.

[aquata]

I absolutely love the spaceport idea. It really does tie in so perfectly, and could lead to some really cool redesigning of the area. I personally would like to see a sleek design, in blues silvers and whites maybe.
Something I think would be interesting for Tomorrowland is to have it go green. Maybe bring in a house of the future with a greenhouse and completely run on solar energy, or something similar. I don't think this could be an overall theme of Tomorrowland but it would be really interesting to see.