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  1. #1651

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Very true. Luckily, there's a door to the side where the busts are. I'm not sure how they normally access the visible storm scene, but I suppose one could just hop the railing...


  2. #1652

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    I presume that since it is listed as a "Storm Lightening Effect" that somewhere in the Mansion there is also a "Storm Darkening Effect"?

    And does the Ramp Up also go down? (sorry, that's a silly variation on a Stupid Guest Question: "Do these stairs go up?")

  3. #1653

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Quote Originally Posted by dougeebear View Post
    I presume that since it is listed as a "Storm Lightening Effect" that somewhere in the Mansion there is also a "Storm Darkening Effect"?
    I know, right? It's pretty sad that they let that misspelling slip through, even as common as it is.

    And does the Ramp Up also go down? (sorry, that's a silly variation on a Stupid Guest Question: "Do these stairs go up?")
    Wait...what? (I mean, I get that any ramp that goes up also must go down in the opposite direction, but as you may or may not know, convention is to write either "ramp up" or "ramp down" with an arrow indicating the direction in which it goes up or down, so as to eliminate ambiguity, as I've done.)


  4. #1654

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Datameister View Post
    I know, right? It's pretty sad that they let that misspelling slip through, even as common as it is.
    Ah the days before spellcheckers. I thought I was the only one who noticed that.
    The Right Honorable Count Boogie Bonz of Random, at your service.

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  5. #1655

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Thanks for the chicken exit info, Data. If nothing else, it helps to make sense of your photos.

    As for the HBG, I doubt that he can be identified with EITHER the GH or MC. As Data sensibly points out, HBG was decapitated, and the GH hanged himself. "Master Gracey" (i.e. the Dorian Gray portrait) won't work either, and for the same reason. You see him morph to a decaying corpse before your eyes, and he's still got his head. However he died, it wasn't by decapitation.

    I really hope they don't over-script the HBG. At least half of his allure is his utter mysteriousness.

    Don't take that away, please.

  6. #1656

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Thanks for the chicken exit info, Data. If nothing else, it helps to make sense of your photos.
    You're absolutely welcome!

    I really hope they don't over-script the HBG. At least half of his allure is his utter mysteriousness. Don't take that away, please.
    Definitely. That's probably the biggest potential for a new HBG to be screwed up. There's something about the Haunted Mansion that doesn't lend itself to speaking AAs, first off. They work marvelously in POTC, but the HM ghost AAs are creepy in part because of the fact that they don't monologue at you or have long conversations. The Ghost Host works because...well, it's the Ghost Host! Absolutely essential. And Madame Leota is abstract enough and creepy enough by way of being a talking head in a crystal ball that her speaking works...and then there's the graveyard jamboree, of course. But other than that, not much speaking happens. Constance changes that, of course, but I'd really rather have her be silent, as well. Her lines make her rather less creepy to me.

    So there's that...and then there's the mystique factor you mentioned, of course. The HBG is so legendary among the fan communities that nearly any script would be a disappointment to us, and it could arguably ruin the character's effectiveness for non-fans, at least to some degree.


  7. #1657

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    So, a bit off topic but I was rather confused as to what and where the "chicken entrance" is, though I have seen quite a few people going in and out of that door in the crypt recently. Anyways, I brought it up in conversation to my mom, and she was like "Oh I know where that is. I used to have to take you out there all the time." So now I know exactly where it is.

  8. #1658

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    I like Constance's lines, but I agree that the HBG should be mute. If they just get his look and the head effect right, they'll have nailed it.

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    This thought just popped into my mind today. Who do you think is holding the candleabra int the Endless Hallway. Possibly Constance or the comic story or someone completley different who do you guys think it is?

  10. #1660

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    A spirit that isn't seen anywhere else in the mansion. Simple as that.


  11. #1661

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Six thousand, two hundred and twenty-seven posts ago, the "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect" series began. Do you even remember now what that effect was? Or is it, er...long forgotten?

    It was the HHG-in-mirror effect.



    You will recall that I claimed that the original effect when the HM first opened was different. Instead of Ezra, Phineas, and Gus, you had clouds of faceless, wispy ghosts, similar to the graveyard wraiths, undulating and floating along with you in the mirror, all around your doombuggy. By late Sept 69 at the latest, this effect was gone, replaced with the HHG effect that is still there today.

    The reason I'm revisiting this topic is that some new stuff has come to light: a crisp, clean copy of an effects blueprint that provided the first evidence that my recollection might be correct. This bp was previously known to us only in a wretched, copy-of-a-copy-of-a-copy version. Most of the writing on it was illegible. The new copy is wonderfully clear, and it provides some new data. So I thought this would be a good time to collect and present in one post, for the first time, all the relevant evidence for this original effect, including the stuff that has surfaced since that first post 'way back when. The evidence is grouped under four headings.

    1) My eyewitness testimony. It is my claim that I saw the effect, as described above, on Aug 14, 1969. By late September when I went to DL again, it was gone. Now it is true that "memory is the most convincing liar of all." Eyewitness testimony, especially after so many years, is of limited value...unless it can be corroborated by independent evidence. The first thing to show is that I made my claim before any of that evidence came to light.

    I described the effect in an email to Chef Mayhem at Doombuggies.com on 8-4-02:



    I also described it in an email to Chris Foxx of grimghosts.com on 8-10-02:



    I described it in a discussion thread at DB.com that I started in Feb 2005: "One of the things I remember from my first ride on the HM, opening week 8/69, was that the HHGs did not reappear in the mirrors. Yeah, they were standing there as always as you entered the crypt, but that was it. Instead, in the mirrors there were wispy ghosts much like the graveyard wraiths surrounding the buggy as you moved along." I made a copy of most of the relevant posts in that thread and still have that. The main participants in the discussion were myself, GRD, and "happyghoul," who brought the jaw-dropping blueprint to my attention for the first time. He sent me a copy. I had no previous knowledge of it.

    2) The D11 blueprint. That's what I'm calling it for convenience, based on a marking in the corner. Here's the HHG room on the wonderful new copy of D11:



    Compare the fuzzy old one that "happyghoul" gave me:



    One amusing discovery is that this boxy humanoid figure, who so mystified everyone...



    ...turns out to be the words "2 WAY MIRRORS"! More interestingly, the description of the wavy screen, illegible before, can now be read: CURVED BACK PROJ. SCR'N



    Another discovery is the date of D11. It was illegible before, but based on other considerations, I had dated it ca. May 69. Turns out it's 4-8-69.



    That's ONE DAY after the latest date on a different effects blueprint that GRD and others have had for some time. For convenience, I'll call that one D13. The original date on D13 is whited out (?), but subsequent dates appear in the next column: 7 Feb 69, and the last date, 4-7-69.



    The HHG effect in D13 is the one we all know and love, with the oval track behind the mirrors for the familiar trio of spooks:



    It appears to me that D11 was the direct successor to D13, and that it therefore represents the status of the HM effects at a time closer to the opening.

    3) Newspaper clippings. Reviews of the HM appeared in many papers, starting Aug 13, 1969. Two of them describe briefly the HHG mirror gag. The first is Keith Murray in the Pasadena Star-Times; the second is Tony Lawrence in Hollywood Reporter, both 8-13:



    Neither of these is a smoking gun, but I submit that they fit more naturally with the effect as I describe it than with the effect we know today. Certainly this is true of the first one, but I'd say it's true of the second as well: "spirits invade" sounds to me a little more like the one than the other. You may disagree. But Murray describes peering into a "fog" and seeing your own reflection, but with no mention of a hitch-hiker beside you.

    4) Clues from Imagineers. For what it's worth, Marc Davis's concept art for the mirrored hitch-hiking ghosts showed ghosts drifting along:



    More important, perhaps, is X Atencio's famous comment about the HHG's to Storyboard magazine: "It was kind of an afterthought, though. It didn't come until the ride was practically put in there." This (mis)statement is quoted in Jason Surrell's Haunted Mansion book (p. 89) and at Doombuggies.com., and most people accept it as gospel truth. Trouble is, it's impossible. All blueprints, going back to 1968, show that distinctive polygonal room that was obviously designed to house the oval track, and the essentials of the gag itself had already been worked out by Ken Anderson for his 1957 walk-thru:



    The best explanation for X's flub is that the originally-planned HHG effect (the one that is there today) was clearly not going to be ready to go by opening day, and so a temporary effect was hastily worked out (in March-April), something to have in the mirror until whatever bugs there were with Ezra-Phineas-Gus could be worked out. Might have been nothing more than an unavoidably-delayed shipment of a vital part.

    If I may speculate, the effect was another example of pure Yale Gracey genius. The drifting ghosts would have been done exactly like the scrim wraiths or the misty clouds in the load area.



    The curved screen served to animate the ghosts as they moved along, undulating. They were bright enough to be seen against the dark backdrop of the outside of the buggy as seen in the mirrors, but not bright enough to be seen against the well-lit interiors of the buggies. There, they were washed out. The effect would be a vaguely threatening cloud of shrouded ghosts.
    Last edited by HBG2; 11-29-2008 at 07:46 PM.

  12. #1662

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    And then there were four...

    You all know that originally there were plans for the raven to be the narrator of the HM, but they jettisoned that idea because the bird was so small it would get lost in some of the scenes, to cite just one problem. When they went to a disembodied voice for the GH, they retained some of the ravens. There are still four in the ride.

    What surprises me is that the number of ravens sort of dwindled down over time rather than getting the meat cleaver approach after the invisible GH was adopted. To judge from the "Story and Song" script, there may have been as many as ten ravens hosting (or co-hosting) at one point. By the time we have Effects Blueprints to examine, we are down to six.

    Then five.

    Then the four we are left with.

    The D13 blueprint from very early 1969 has a raven in the foyer and one in the ballroom, besides the surviving four. GRD did a blog about the foyer raven on the D13 bp awhile back:

    The Ghost Relations Department: Caw-Caw!!!

    Here's the ballroom one from that same bp:



    I used to think the D11 bp from April 69 had neither of the extra birds, but that's because the old copy was so bad. With the new one, you can see that the ballroom raven was still in the planning at that point.



    So it looks like the ballroom raven almost made it, and was the last one to get the sack before opening day. He's in the Collin Campbell artwork for the S and S album, but on the wrong side of the room. He should be on that far balcony.



    Speaking of extra ravens, I was always intrigued by the stretchroom raven on the "Story and Song" album, who sits on a bookcase in the middle of the room. Since the basic shape and look of the stretchroom were well-established very early in the game, this missing bookcase is fun to imagine.



    It would have been tall, so that no one could reach up and touch the AA raven on top of it, and it would have been narrow, so as not to take up valuable floor space, and I suppose it would have been octagonal or at least four-sided. Imagine walking into the stretchroom gallery with that piece of furniture in the center, with an AA raven on top.

    Sort of an anti-Tiki Room experience.

  13. #1663

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    And then there were four...

    You all know that originally there were plans for the raven to be the narrator of the HM, but they jettisoned that idea because the bird was so small it would get lost in some of the scenes, to cite just one problem. When they went to a disembodied voice for the GH, they retained some of the ravens. There are still four in the ride.

    What surprises me is that the number of ravens sort of dwindled down over time rather than getting the meat cleaver approach after the invisible GH was adopted. To judge from the "Story and Song" script, there may have been as many as ten ravens hosting (or co-hosting) at one point. By the time we have Effects Blueprints to examine, we are down to six.

    Then five.

    Then the four we are left with.

    The D13 blueprint from very early 1969 has a raven in the foyer and one in the ballroom, besides the surviving four. GRD did a blog about the foyer raven on the D13 bp awhile back:

    The Ghost Relations Department: Caw-Caw!!!

    Here's the ballroom one from that same bp:



    I used to think the D11 bp from April 69 had neither of the extra birds, but that's because the old copy was so bad. With the new one, you can see that the ballroom raven was still in the planning at that point.



    So it looks like the ballroom raven almost made it, and was the last one to get the sack before opening day. He's in the Collin Campbell artwork for the S and S album, but on the wrong side of the room. He should be on that far balcony.



    Speaking of extra ravens, I was always intrigued by the stretchroom raven on the "Story and Song" album, who sits on a bookcase in the middle of the room. Since the basic shape and look of the stretchroom were well-established very early in the game, this missing bookcase is fun to imagine.



    It would have been tall, so that no one could reach up and touch the AA raven on top of it, and it would have been narrow, so as not to take up valuable floor space, and I suppose it would have been octagonal or at least four-sided. Imagine walking into the stretchroom gallery with that piece of furniture in the center, with an AA raven on top.

    Sort of an anti-Tiki Room experience.
    Wait a minute! I thought there was a raven in the ballroom.

  14. #1664

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Quote Originally Posted by aashee View Post
    He is there. He's on the handrail of the stairs to the right of the dualists.
    Quote Originally Posted by HMF View Post
    Wait a minute! I thought there was a raven in the ballroom.
    This is mentioned in Kevin Yee's book too, reportedly. Very strange how many people think there's a raven in the ballroom. There is not.

  15. #1665

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    Re: Revenge of "Long-Forgotten Haunted Mansion Effect," or The Thread 3

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post

    Speaking of extra ravens, I was always intrigued by the stretchroom raven on the "Story and Song" album, who sits on a bookcase in the middle of the room. Since the basic shape and look of the stretchroom were well-established very early in the game, this missing bookcase is fun to imagine.
    Maybe they meant a bookcase in the attic area. You see the corpse dangling and a raven perched right by it, saying "the coward's way!"


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