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  1. #16

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    Well, TSkip's post expressed befuddlement over why the painting inspired no complaints while the chase scene apparently did. I think DL nailed it. Whether the complainers had a (peg)leg to stand on when they took offense at the chase scene is a separate issue.
    Thank you, HBG. Indeed, that is a separate issue, and one better suited to be fought over in its own thread.

  2. #17

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    The often misapplied 'rape' tag gets put on POTC every so often. Everytime I see it, I will offer rebuttal. The subject was not brought up by me--merely commented upon.

  3. #18

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    So the implications of sexual contact, be it forced or invited, must be removed but the outward expression of nudity and sexuality can stay? I am slightly confused on that point. Also if one considers the chase scene, the last pirate was BEING chased... so then was he the victim of an attempted rape?

    My point in the former is that both auction and painting remain, but any indication of pirates chasing be it out of love or lust has been stricken from the attraction. Again I did not mean to stray off topic. On a personal note I love the painting.
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  4. #19

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    So the implications of sexual contact, be it forced or invited, must be removed but the outward expression of nudity and sexuality can stay? I am slightly confused on that point. Also if one considers the chase scene, the last pirate was BEING chased... so then was he the victim of an attempted rape?

    My point in the former is that both auction and painting remain, but any indication of pirates chasing be it out of love or lust has been stricken from the attraction. Again I did not mean to stray off topic. On a personal note I love the painting.
    Careful now, skip--you may get accused of starting a tangent discussion in a dead thread.

  5. #20

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    So the implications of sexual contact, be it forced or invited, must be removed but the outward expression of nudity and sexuality can stay? I am slightly confused on that point. Also if one considers the chase scene, the last pirate was BEING chased... so then was he the victim of an attempted rape?

    My point in the former is that both auction and painting remain, but any indication of pirates chasing be it out of love or lust has been stricken from the attraction. Again I did not mean to stray off topic. On a personal note I love the painting.
    It's just that this discussion is about the painting, and the painting skates past the controversy because there's no implication of force in it. If you insist that the complainers' real motive was mere prudishness, than you can use the painting to play gotcha, but if their motives were what they claimed they were, then it's perfectly sensible that they ignored the painting.
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    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  6. #21

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    It's just that this discussion is about the painting, and the painting skates past the controversy because there's no implication of force in it. If you insist that the complainers' real motive was mere prudishness, than you can use the painting to play gotcha, but if their motives were what they claimed they were, then it's perfectly sensible that they ignored the painting.
    If I remember the initial complaint correctly it was the shock of seeing women treated as objects. I would love to read the initial complaint if someone has it. In any event if the complaint was treating women as objects, then the auction and the painting both fall easily within that category!

    Likewise if the complaints were lodged from the sexual argument, then selling women or drinking while starring at scantily clad women, would again fall within the same category.

    Even if the complaint was lodged from the "too much from young eyes" category, both fall easily within it. I laugh because every trip I have taken on Pirates, kids point out the painting.

    About the only argument that the painting does not fit within is the argument against larger women chasing smaller men. In this instance the auction still fits within this argument because of the pirate crowd's unwillingness to purchase a larger woman and chanting "We wants the Redhead". Which would then turn back to the sexual implications of both Redhead and painting...

    so...
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  7. #22

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    If I remember the initial complaint correctly it was the shock of seeing women treated as objects. I would love to read the initial complaint if someone has it. In any event if the complaint was treating women as objects, then the auction and the painting both fall easily within that category!

    Likewise if the complaints were lodged from the sexual argument, then selling women or drinking while starring at scantily clad women, would again fall within the same category.

    Even if the complaint was lodged from the "too much from young eyes" category, both fall easily within it. I laugh because every trip I have taken on Pirates, kids point out the painting.

    About the only argument that the painting does not fit within is the argument against larger women chasing smaller men. In this instance the auction still fits within this argument because of the pirate crowd's unwillingness to purchase a larger woman and chanting "We wants the Redhead". Which would then turn back to the sexual implications of both Redhead and painting...

    so...
    As I understand it, the complaint that stuck was, "Rape isn't something to make fun of."
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  8. #23

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    As I understand it, the complaint that stuck was, "Rape isn't something to make fun of."
    Again I am straying completely off topic but I will bring it back around in a moment.

    If the battle cry was in fact rape, then the auction is the precursor to rape because it is women sold as slaves. If women being sold as slaves are being sold to drunk men who were looking at a painting of a Redhead in her birthday suit... then you could justifiably remove both painting AND auction citing them as the influences that provided the opportunity to commit the act.

    So, again, I find it ironic that Disney chose to POORLY overlay one specific scene when several contributed to the perceived notion of rape. I do not agree with the decision, but I feel the band-aided decision/action was a tongue in cheek insult at best.
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  9. #24

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    "We pillage and plunder and rifle and loot, drink up me hearties yo-ho...we kidnap and ravage and don't give a hoot, drink up me hearties yo-ho..."

    Yep, if they wanted to remove any reference to rape they'd have to do a lot more than switch a few pirates around. I mean, they're pirates - they're supposed to be scary. They should add an audio-animatronic of a cackling piratical Big Bertha carrying away some hapless, scrawny middle-aged male villager in his nightgown to balance it out though. "Bertha want snoo-snoo!"

  10. #25

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
    "We pillage and plunder and rifle and loot, drink up me hearties yo-ho...we kidnap and ravage and don't give a hoot, drink up me hearties yo-ho..."

    Yep, if they wanted to remove any reference to rape they'd have to do a lot more than switch a few pirates around. I mean, they're pirates - they're supposed to be scary. They should add an audio-animatronic of a cackling piratical Big Bertha carrying away some hapless, scrawny middle-aged male villager in his nightgown to balance it out though. "Bertha want snoo-snoo!"
    Just a quick vocabulary lesson: you seem to have confused "ravage" with "ravish." It's a common mistake since they sound so much alike. Ravage means a destructive raid on a location; ravish means rape.

    And as for kidnapping . . . yeah, we all know what happened to Will Turner in the pirate movies every time he got kidnapped. Kidnapping doesn't necessarily imply forced sexual contact. Even as a kid, I always thought that word in the song meant the pirates merely kidnapped people for ransom money.

  11. #26

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    To complete the English vocabulary lesson you also forgot to include radish which sounds similar to both ravage and ravish but is actually a small vegetable!
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  12. #27

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    I used to chase girls all the time as a kid. Rape really didn't cross my mind.

    The fact that some over-sensitive dunderheads with zero senses of humor equated the pirates-chasing-girls set-up for the fat-girl-chasing-pirate punchline as a prelude to rape, put me off "PC" for the duration.

  13. #28

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Actually, the correct words are "To village your wonder and raffle your boots, link up me parties yo ho, we burlap your cabbage and eat all your fruit, eat up your smarties yo ho!" Everyone knows that.

    See, I was testing you. And you FAIL, ma'am! You FAIL!

  14. #29

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Cinnamon Toast and Tacos on the floor.
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  15. #30

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Lady View Post
    Just a quick vocabulary lesson: you seem to have confused "ravage" with "ravish." It's a common mistake since they sound so much alike. Ravage means a destructive raid on a location; ravish means rape.

    And as for kidnapping . . . yeah, we all know what happened to Will Turner in the pirate movies every time he got kidnapped. Kidnapping doesn't necessarily imply forced sexual contact. Even as a kid, I always thought that word in the song meant the pirates merely kidnapped people for ransom money.
    Aye, Dark Lady, but the definition you gave for ravage can easily parallel a definition for rape.

    I never looked at the chase scene as a child and thought, "Oh, these guys are going to rape these women!" They're forever chasing each other...meaning, the pirates never catch them. This is similar to Walt's explanation for the pirate with the tower of hats - he will never make it. Additionally, with mention of the originally-recorded tracks, which did actually make it into the scene and are played today, the women are giggling, not screaming in terror. Is this making fun of rape? I don't think so...it's a man and a woman in chase. It is playful.

    And pretending that pirates were boy scouts back in the day is a stupid notion. I'm a feminist, but I don't like to pretend that history doesn't exist.

    With the auction scene, several of the women are crying and sad, but the redhead and the woman actually up for auction are hamming it up - they're not freaking out. Is that making fun of rape? No. Once again, the women in question are willing.

    Then coming back to the redhead painting, that's what it is! A painting - a work of art. No one looks at a nude Greek statue and says, "Oh, that's objectification of women!" It is artistic expression, the beauty of the natural body. America has a strange fascination with violence but then terribly fears the body, makes it taboo, when it is the most natural thing that we know and experience.

    And with that in mind, the entire attraction could have that thought applied to it as well - really, anything can be a work of art.


    On an interesting note, I have noticed that the painting has recently not been lit at all...it used to be far more visible, and now it's more shrouded in darkness. I wonder if this was a PC-ed choice, or a dead light.

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