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  1. #31

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Nicely put, Pineapple. Actually, I think we have something of a cultural disconnect from our past, here. I mean, I'm barely a quarter of a century old, so what do I know...but I don't think the idea of rape would really cross anyone's mind back when the ride was first designed. I figure one would more readily assume that these all-too-forward suitors are just doing a poor job at wooing their reluctant maidens, much like the aforementioned Looney Tunes skunk.

    As for objectification in the portrait...well, let's just say that the model for the portrait looks more than willing to get herself painted. She looks like she's thinking "Man...I look AMAZING!" And hey, what's wrong with that?

  2. #32

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    Careful now, skip--you may get accused of starting a tangent discussion in a dead thread.
    All right, since Tom doesn't seem to mind us hijacking his thread, I'll play along.

    Quote Originally Posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    The chase scene, eh? When one takes into consideration the originally recorded accompanying soundtrack to the scene that to some reactionaries is such a clear 'indication of rape', one would hear kissing noises, and protestations of 'love' on the pirate's part; in one instance: "About ship, me lovey! It's the pride o' me heart ye be!".

    Just like the auction scene, this vignette was played down as harmless fun. It is hypocritical IMO to NOT condemn the Auction scene, if one has come to the conclusion that the 'woman chasing' sequence is unseemly. By really considering the designer's intent for the chase scene, it is hard for me to see this paralleled as rape. I suppose Pepe LePew* would be a rapist using these same standards.

    *you younger folks, go ahead and Google him--you'll like it.
    Where should I begin.

    All right, let's start with the basic. A man is not justified in sexually taking a woman by force no matter how much he claims to "love" her. Claiming to love someone does NOT excuse or transform the act of rape into something innocent. Can we agree on that? I certainly hope so.

    It follows that if trying to justify rape with love in real life is wrong, then it's wrong to do the same in a family-friendly ride. And if you're still claiming that it wasn't really rape in the first place because there was "love" on the part of the pirates and "kissing sounds," then please read my first paragraph over and over until it sinks in.

    By the way, "About ship, me lovey! It's the pride o' me heart ye be," translates to, "You're good-looking enough to make me feel proud of myself for having you, so turn around and bend over." Great example of love there.

    And that reminds me of a certain pirate's lines in particular, the one who sits out in front of the original "chase" scene. I don't care how many individual pirates they originally recorded smooching and declaring "love." When you passed by the "chase" scene, this pirate out front was the only one we heard. And what was he saying?

    Oh, shiver me self! it's dead wore out I be! laughter
    A mite too fast these light footed wenches be for the likes of an old swag-bellied pirate such as I!
    Now where be that fascinatin' little ole' treasure, eh?
    Heave to mateys!
    Say, if ye set yer eyes on a bewitchin' maiden in yer travels...
    Oh, she be a lively lassie she were! Oh, I tell ye true.
    It's sore I be to hoist me colors on the likes of that shy little wench!
    Favor - keep a weather eye open matey, I be willin' to share I be!
    Do I really need to point out the obvious here? This was the character dead-center and in the spotlight for this scene. The women being chased were only the background to this central animatronic, and what he said both set the tone for and explained exactly what was going on: he and his friends are completely self-obsessed with their own lust, and they're completely oblivious to the possibility that their targets might not want to participate.

    And from my earliest recollections, it was obvious from the faces of the women being chased that they in fact did NOT want to participate. My eyesight may not have been the best, but my earliest memories of the ride include expressions of absolute horror on the faces of the running women. I remember asking my dad about this scene when I was in kindergarten. I wanted to know why the women were running, why the pirates would chase them around instead of treasure. My dad told me, "The pirates want to kiss them, but the women don't want them to."

    I remember being shocked and enraged by that. When you're a little kid, kissing is usually the #1 romantic act to be dreaded if you don't already know about sex. I didn't know there were worse things to be forced to do than kiss someone at that age, but nevertheless, I saw what was wrong there. The pirates want to "kiss" the women, but the women don't want them to. So that means the pirates should leave the women alone. But why don't they stop chasing them? Why does it seem like the ride is saying this is okay? And why is everyone laughing at this?

    That was what went through my five-year-old mind at this scene. If a kindergartener can see why we shouldn't be laughing at forced sexual/ romantic contact, why do adults argue that it has a place in a family-friendly attraction? If this were a ride meant purely for an adult audience and the scene was treated seriously as a historical testament to the brutality suffered by women, this wouldn't be an issue. But this is a ride enjoyed by millions of children worldwide, and it's clear to us as kids that the pirates are the anti-heroes whom we want to take after.

    And as you yourself said, this scene wasn't treated seriously: "this vignette was played down as harmless fun." What we had back then (and still have now) were children who were encouraged by merchandising to identify with and idolize the pirates. Combine that with the message that rape is "harmless fun." Yep, that's just cruise control for good stuff happening right there. Main point: it's not all right to treat forced sexual contact humorously in front of a young audience.

    What we have now are children who're encouraged by merchandising to identify with and idolize pirates, but the women in the former "chase" scene are shown fighting back. Three of the four women are chasing the pirates for stealing their valuables, while one pirate alone continues to chase a woman. Young girls like I was get to see a reversal of the helpless female role shown in the earlier auction scene. Meanwhile, our old pooped/lusty pirate talks to us about a map and treasure, not how much he wants to "hoist his colors" on some "shy little wench." The overtones of rape in this scene are gone. And do I love it? YES, I DO!

    As for the Auction scene, I always hated it. Trust that a kindergartener who objects to forced kissing is going to object to a slave auction as well. That scene still makes me cringe every time I try to enjoy it. However, that scene does have one saving grace: the Redhead. As we know ahead of time, she isn't doomed to a life of matrimonial slavery. The redhead we see in the painting is a liberated, empowered woman. Her sexuality is unthreatened and under her own control. She's escaped the role of the helpless auction bride and become the victor.

    This is what kind of redeems the whole sad auction scene in my mind. When you look at the scene, the Redhead stands center-stage in the same way the pooped/lusty pirate did in front of the chase scene. It's almost as if the whole auction scene is there merely to illustrate the origin of its central character, the Redhead. We've seen her as a pirate -- now we know some of her history. This is the catalyst that changed her life and inducted her into the world of piracy. She overcame this scene. The other women who're crying and horrified may not have been so fortunate, but at least our heroine the Redhead triumphed over these circumstances.

    That's why I don't think the auction scene needs to be drastically altered. All it needs is a little more emphasis that the Redhead uses this event as a springboard into a better life. That way, we're made to understand that this slave auction is indeed a terrible thing and nothing to be laughed at lightly -- but the Redhead uses it to her advantage and prevails.

    And as for Pepe LePew, you won't be surprised to learn that I always hated him with a burning fury. Every time one of his cartoons came on, I'd have to fight myself just to contain my anger. Yes, by the standards I've been going on, he is a figure that endorses rape. All of his female targets do everything in their power to get away from him, he refuses to respect their right to choose not to engage in activities with him, and this is what we're supposed to laugh at? No, that crap isn't funny no matter how comically it's treated, but somehow, people're fooled into laughing at it anyway.

  3. #33

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Man, you were a SERIOUS-minded kid, weren't you? When I was a kid, it was the girls who would (horrifically) chase and try to kiss the boys, so I naturally found that scene confusing.

    I also think you forget that audio-animatronics are as barren as Ken and Barbie. They can only procreate by building more of themselves. Therefore, the pirates' intentions can only be clumsy attempts to gain the romantic interest of the chase-ees.

    But I still say, if it bothers you...add a female pirate attempting to abduct a male villager. Equal-opportunity offending.

  4. #34

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Shenanigans!

    Sorry, but I remember being a kid and the thought of being kissed or kissing someone of the opposite sex was probably the single greatest threat to one's existence. I'm sorry my dear, but apparently you were never taught of the threat of cooties.

    Here's a reminder:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=http:...?v=w6ylxWcwkUM
    I doubt that Pepe le Pew or the saucy pirates really enraged you at such an early age. If so, then I apologize for you having such a distraught and troublesome childhood.

    When I was 10 I watched Optimus Prime die (Transformers: The Movie), and that was pretty traumatic. We put my dog to sleep when I was 12 and I was pretty messed up from that too. But never was an elementary school age Rustymuscle ever shaken by a Disneyland attraction and I doubt you were too.

  5. #35

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Heh heh, that video is awesome.

    I don't know, somehow I think the role reversal as a youngster skewed my perception of the world. I mean, here I sit at home, waiting for the roaming herds of lipstick-wearing females to batter down my door and demand kissies, and I can't figure out why it's taking them so long...

    Maybe if I dressed like a pirate?

  6. #36

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    Careful now, skip--you may get accused of starting a tangent discussion in a dead thread.
    Gee until Dark Lady pointed it out I had actually forgotten about that jab!

    Ok since this is a MASSIVE derail, I could either bring it back on track or continue on this path that I will likely be either blamed for or rightfully accused of supporting.

    To address the rather lengthy post of Dark Lady. It is impossible for me to reject the chase scene without rejecting both the auction, and the painting. The auction for obvious reasons. The painting hangs above a bar, not in a museum to be appreciated for it's subject, but in a bar to be appreciated for it's lust value! In that specific context it is then seen by drunk pirates and can then be tangibly linked as a possible inspiration for the attacks and actions that occur later in the attraction.

    You also have the obvious joke about larger women which was NOT addressed and is equally puzzling. Somehow having a large woman front and center that no one wants is acceptable, but having pirates chase women is not. Also let's look closer at the chase scene, was it a woman fending off attackers, or pirates running from a larger woman? Likely the laughter was because many perceived the latter. I also saw irony in Disney's decision to have women hold food, as if that is what the pirates were chasing. Personally I think having a large woman chase a pirate holding a plate of food is actually worse then the implication that a pirate was running away from a larger woman.

    Disney picks and chooses it's battles, but why it chose to partially change makes little or no sense to me. People complain that DCA was half done... that is how I felt about the changes... either do them or don't bother but to feed an excuse of "this is PC" really turned my stomach.
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  7. #37

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustymuscle View Post
    I doubt that Pepe le Pew or the saucy pirates really enraged you at such an early age. If so, then I apologize for you having such a distraught and troublesome childhood.

    When I was 10 I watched Optimus Prime die (Transformers: The Movie), and that was pretty traumatic. We put my dog to sleep when I was 12 and I was pretty messed up from that too. But never was an elementary school age Rustymuscle ever shaken by a Disneyland attraction and I doubt you were too.
    Not all children fail to be affected in significant ways by the messages they see around them. And it's true I was a very serious-minded kid much of the time. I felt powerful emotional reactions to many, many things. But a sense of moral outrage in a child by no means indicates a distraught or troublesome childhood. In fact, I'm surprised I felt so strongly about anything considering what a wonderfully care-free and easy ride I had in childhood.

  8. #38

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Overall, making changes because they're "inappropriate" is kind of lame. I mean, you don't take every PG and PG-13 rated movie out there and chop it down so that nobody can possibly take any offense at it...you just let your kids watch it, or not. Maybe Dark Lady's parents shouldn't have taken her on it if she was sensitive to such things.

    There's a cliche these days about Disneyland just being for whippersnappers that seems to color peoples' opinions whether they think about it or not. I say we should take Disneyland for what it is - possibly the most immersive and most interactive art gallery in the world. Which brings us back to the painting...

    I think we need an audio-animatronic of that pirate, if she's not the redhead in the auction - perhaps more fully dressed. They need some female pirates, like Anne Bonney and Mary Read. What say you?

  9. #39

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Gee until Dark Lady pointed it out I had actually forgotten about that jab!

    Ok since this is a MASSIVE derail, I could either bring it back on track or continue on this path that I will likely be either blamed for or rightfully accused of supporting.

    To address the rather lengthy post of Dark Lady. It is impossible for me to reject the chase scene without rejecting both the auction, and the painting. The auction for obvious reasons. The painting hangs above a bar, not in a museum to be appreciated for it's subject, but in a bar to be appreciated for it's lust value! In that specific context it is then seen by drunk pirates and can then be tangibly linked as a possible inspiration for the attacks and actions that occur later in the attraction.

    You also have the obvious joke about larger women which was NOT addressed and is equally puzzling. Somehow having a large woman front and center that no one wants is acceptable, but having pirates chase women is not. Also let's look closer at the chase scene, was it a woman fending off attackers, or pirates running from a larger woman? Likely the laughter was because many perceived the latter. I also saw irony in Disney's decision to have women hold food, as if that is what the pirates were chasing. Personally I think having a large woman chase a pirate holding a plate of food is actually worse then the implication that a pirate was running away from a larger woman.

    Disney picks and chooses it's battles, but why it chose to partially change makes little or no sense to me. People complain that DCA was half done... that is how I felt about the changes... either do them or don't bother but to feed an excuse of "this is PC" really turned my stomach.
    You're right that the larger woman in the auction being ridiculed and rejected isn't right. But my post was already long enough without including that point, right?

    What I'm getting from your point is that you either accept sexuality in the attraction, or you don't. I disagree. I don't believe sexuality in and of itself is a bad thing, and I don't think that children should be forbidden from seeing any facet of it at all. The Redhead represents a sexual woman, but why would we want to censor her and cover her up? Because it's impossible for a female to actually want the sexual experience? Because some man might see her and be overcome by lust and go on a raping spree? It's arguably just as wrong to suppress and deny a woman her sexuality as it is to take advantage of it by force, as the burqa and practice of clitoridectomy can testify.

    But sexuality does become a bad thing when it hurts and humiliates someone against their will. This is why rape scenes are not okay for children to be laughing at, but a simple painting of a seductive female hanging in a bar full of skeletons can represent a more positive side to sexuality. However hilarious that may sound.

  10. #40

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Meh.

    Pirates are pirates. Either Disney-ized and family-friendly (Swiss Family Robinson) or realistic and raunchy.

    I find these sort of points moot as anyone could arbitrarily stand up and cry foul with any number of things...

    -Gepetto was a child molester. Why else would he, a solitary adult male living in an isolated workshop, hand craft an adolescent boy?

    -Snow White was subjected to horrific forced sexual episodes in exchange for safe haven from her murderous pursuers.

    -Capitan Hook too was a rampant pedophile. His residence in Nevernever Land, a remote island populated by under-age boys testifies to his corrupt motives.

    -Mr. Toad is an attraction that promotes drunk driving as a fun, exciting activity.

  11. #41

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
    Overall, making changes because they're "inappropriate" is kind of lame. I mean, you don't take every PG and PG-13 rated movie out there and chop it down so that nobody can possibly take any offense at it...you just let your kids watch it, or not. Maybe Dark Lady's parents shouldn't have taken her on it if she was sensitive to such things.
    On the contrary: a child who sees and reacts against a message that's WRONG is far more equipped to deal with that message than a child who just blindly accepts it.

  12. #42

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Lady View Post
    Because some man might see her and be overcome by lust and go on a raping spree? It's arguably just as wrong to suppress and deny a woman her sexuality as it is to take advantage of it by force, as the burqa and practice of clitoridectomy can testify.
    Uh, oh - those aren't particularly good examples, not to feed the derailment demon. Anthropological study has cast some serious doubt on the idea that these practices are mostly the result of male dominion. Attempts by our culture to "liberate" women from these things have been disastrous, because in most cases the women actually want these things...the burqa provides protection and modesty, and female circumcision (just like male circumcision) is often considered a sign of purity of a symbol of coming-of-age. Trying to force women to abandon these ideas because our own cultural ethics don't permit it is often just as bad as male domination.

  13. #43

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    At least my derailment stayed on Disney property... in any event my point remains. The auction is portraying women as powerless creatures doomed to sexual domination, and the painting is hanging in a bar full of now dead previously drunk pirates. That painting is a foreshadow of an auction which in turn is a foreshadow of the chase. To remove the finale but leave the rest is pointless IMHO. I am ALL for woman's rights, and the ability for anyone to express their sexuality. I question how it can be ok to express sexuality at a family oriented theme park, but any allusions to pirates being pirates is unacceptable. SO the kid defense can be used on either side of that fence.

    I've also wondered why all the pirates in the attraction are men.
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  14. #44

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Dude...

    'Dant, really, never battle a feminist on the grounds of "studies show that women actually prefer traditional sex roles assigned to their perspective cultures."

    (whispers: It only makes them - the feminist, that is - madder)

  15. #45

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    Cinnamon Toast and Tacos on the floor.

    AHHHH! But, it is
    "Cinnamon toast and tacos, for my whore!"

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