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  1. #46

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustymuscle View Post
    Dude...

    'Dant, really, never battle a feminist on the grounds of "studies show that women actually prefer traditional sex roles assigned to their perspective cultures."

    (whispers: It only makes them - the feminist, that is - madder)
    Heh, trust me, I wasn't. I was just pointing out that us Westerners, tend to swing into any culture with easy judgements about what's right or wrong, without knowing the real forces at work behind the situation. We're perfectly justified in proclaiming the evils of elements of our our culture, but once we start proclaiming elements of other cultures as evil - without fully understanding them - we start to tread into the territory of Imperialism. Claiming that we know what's right for other cultures without living in them can be pretty dangerous. And that brings us back to....uh...Jungle Cruise?

  2. #47

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustymuscle View Post
    Dude...

    'Dant, really, never battle a feminist on the grounds of "studies show that women actually prefer traditional sex roles assigned to their perspective cultures."

    (whispers: It only makes them - the feminist, that is - madder)
    This man speaks wise words. Heed his advice.

  3. #48

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Hey, I'll take sexism over Imperialism any day. Sexism can be pointed out, decried and with time and patience amended. Imperialism can lead to everlasting war, genocide, and the permanent loss of entire cultures.

    Man, that got heavy fast.

  4. #49

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    At least my derailment stayed on Disney property... in any event my point remains. The auction is portraying women as powerless creatures doomed to sexual domination, and the painting is hanging in a bar full of now dead previously drunk pirates. That painting is a foreshadow of an auction which in turn is a foreshadow of the chase. To remove the finale but leave the rest is pointless IMHO. I am ALL for woman's rights, and the ability for anyone to express their sexuality. I question how it can be ok to express sexuality at a family oriented theme park, but any allusions to pirates being pirates is unacceptable. SO the kid defense can be used on either side of that fence.

    I've also wondered why all the pirates in the attraction are men.
    You're right that Pirates still has its problems. It ain't perfect, but the changes they've made so far are good enough to satisfy at least me for now.

    My main point, that it's not all right to treat forced sexual contact humorously in front of a young audience, has already been attended to by Disney. I'm just trying to defend their decision.

    And as for the Redhead -- at least we know that her character prevailed over the auction scene in time.

  5. #50

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    I'm probably an idiot to step into this ring of fire, but...

    The core issue is the human propensity to depict terrible things artistically, for entertainment, and without apparent moralizing. Come on, folks, let's cut through the crap. The pirates are being bad. They've got more on their minds than a few smoochies.

    Perfectly normal, morally healthy people go on POTC and HM, and take their kids too, and they find it amusing, interesting, and entertaining. Practically no one asks, "Wait, what are we doing? We're making light of murder, torture, theft, arson, suicide, premature interment...and we may as well throw rape on the list and stop splitting hairs.

    Two defenses that don't hold up are: (1) Well, it's historical reality, so let's not sugarcoat it. Ptthhh. Why don't you show a pirate actually cutting someone's throat, then? (2) Well, there is moralizing in there. The grotto shows you in advance what that kind of life leads to. See kids, pillage and plunder and you'll end up on a beach with a sword in your back. Ptthhh again. Most of those skeletons look like they went out in style, and this was 200 years ago, so OF COURSE they're dead. They'd be equally skeletal if they were all saints.

    But for the naysayers, be careful what you're asking for. Rape isn't funny. Neither is suicide. Neither is...oh crap, there went my Rolling Stones collection. Seems like half of modern popular art revels in portraying amoral and anti-social behavior, indulged without negative consequence (think of horror films, or nasty bad rock 'n roll). Woohoo, I'm a baaaaaad boy. People seem to get it, that this isn't that big a deal. Your id is dancing away on the screen, the CD player, or even in classic Disney rides, the dark side of you that you know you can never indulge, but is lurking back inside there, wishing he/she could cast off all constraint and do some Godzilla-stompin' damage. We find it cathartic and amusing to see it played out in a harmlessly unreal venue.

    So I say let POTC be POTC. Don't try to make it something it isn't, and don't pretend it isn't what it is.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  6. #51

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladdin View Post
    AHHHH! But, it is
    "Cinnamon toast and tacos, for my whore!"
    Really? I was thinking:
    "Cinnamon toast tacos at the door."

    Need subjective evidence?
    1) Taco Bell sells "Choco Tacos" and once sold their "Cinnamon Chips." A delicious cinnamon toast taco would be the perfect marriage of the two.

    2) Taco Bell, a property of Pepsi Co. shares many franchises with Pizza Hut. Any particular pizza restaurant sharing its property with the Mexican food-themed partner features both menus and home delivery service, thusly allowing "Cinnamon toast tacos at the door."

    Ta-da!.

  7. #52

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Okay, that was all very well-put...so that leads to the obvious question: should we feel bad by indulging in a deluge of entertainment that probably contains immoral messages? And more to the point, will this sort of entertainment influence our actions? Jack Thompson and his anti-violence-in-video-games league tends to think so, but I've murdered thousands of digital incarnations of human beings without ONCE murdering a real person. Well...okay, maybe once. Or twice. But I was really drunk.

    In other words, would riding Pirates influence peoples' opinion of forced sexual contact? I can't recall ever hearing of an incident of rape and then thinking "Well, it's funny on the Disney ride...maybe I should be laughing instead of feeling sadness and outrage."

  8. #53

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Then again, I'm exceptionally dense when it comes to symbolism in entertainment. I had never thought about that scene in...quite those terms.

  9. #54

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Lady View Post
    And as for the Redhead -- at least we know that her character prevailed over the auction scene in time.
    And we know this how? We somehow are assured that she was not destined for the same brutality others would be destined for why? If anything I would think her character would stand the greatest to loose given the entire crowd would bid heavily for her and thus "want their money's worth"...

    I would LOVE to hear the explanation of this...

    To the TS I apologize for a rather large derailment.
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  10. #55

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    It is referred to as "A Portrait of Things To Come'. Great shots, HBG!! I did a ultra-rough watercolor study of it using it for a friend's O scale building interior decoration (it was drastically sized down later to fit, of course):
    You never cease to amaze me, Mr. Swab. That is very, very nice.

    I had no idea you had done Techskip's avatar, either, which I've always really liked.

    Your talents are truly astounding.
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    I still can't figure out where that strap goes.

  11. #56

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by techskip View Post
    And we know this how? We somehow are assured that she was not destined for the same brutality others would be destined for why? If anything I would think her character would stand the greatest to loose given the entire crowd would bid heavily for her and thus "want their money's worth"...

    I would LOVE to hear the explanation of this...

    To the TS I apologize for a rather large derailment.
    I talked about it in the last three or so paragraphs of my first essay post. Here, I'll post it again:

    Quote Originally Posted by I
    However, that scene does have one saving grace: the Redhead. As we know ahead of time, she isn't doomed to a life of matrimonial slavery. The redhead we see in the painting is a liberated, empowered woman. Her sexuality is unthreatened and under her own control. She's escaped the role of the helpless auction bride and become the victor.

    This is what kind of redeems the whole sad auction scene in my mind. When you look at the scene, the Redhead stands center-stage in the same way the pooped/lusty pirate did in front of the chase scene. It's almost as if the whole auction scene is there merely to illustrate the origin of its central character, the Redhead. We've seen her as a pirate -- now we know some of her history. This is the catalyst that changed her life and inducted her into the world of piracy. She overcame this scene. The other women who're crying and horrified may not have been so fortunate, but at least our heroine the Redhead triumphed over these circumstances.

    That's why I don't think the auction scene needs to be drastically altered. All it needs is a little more emphasis that the Redhead uses this event as a springboard into a better life. That way, we're made to understand that this slave auction is indeed a terrible thing and nothing to be laughed at lightly -- but the Redhead uses it to her advantage and prevails.
    Long story short: she went through some tough times, but she came out a pirate in the end. From sex-slave to free sea-faring rogue. Pretty awesome triumph right there for a woman of her times. And the redhead in the painting is her, we talked about that in the beginning of this thread, didn't we? I can't even remember now.

  12. #57

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
    Okay, that was all very well-put...so that leads to the obvious question: should we feel bad by indulging in a deluge of entertainment that probably contains immoral messages? And more to the point, will this sort of entertainment influence our actions? Jack Thompson and his anti-violence-in-video-games league tends to think so, but I've murdered thousands of digital incarnations of human beings without ONCE murdering a real person. Well...okay, maybe once. Or twice. But I was really drunk.

    In other words, would riding Pirates influence peoples' opinion of forced sexual contact? I can't recall ever hearing of an incident of rape and then thinking "Well, it's funny on the Disney ride...maybe I should be laughing instead of feeling sadness and outrage."
    Let's take a worst case scenario. For the sake of argument, let's say POTC desensitizes people to the horrible reality of rape, makes them think "it's not such a big deal." Even IF that were true (and I'm not conceding it), then purely from a tactical point of view, I'd still say leave it alone. The blunt truth is you're going to come off as moralistic, humorless, and uptight if you attack a Disney ride that 99% of the public think is harmless fun. You'll only lose some of the credibility you need to have to fight the more substantive battles. It's irrelevant if you're technically right. Pick your battles. If you must, use POTC as an example of the kind of mindset that still permeates our society and use it to rouse the troops, but don't fight it, fight the problem: lobby for tougher rape laws and better legal protocols for rape victims, or for better education about the unacceptability of violence in personal relationships of any kind, or whatever.

    I'm telling ya, if you vote to censor POTC, get ready to toss your Metal albums on the bonfire, because that's where you're headed.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  13. #58

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    I'm telling ya, if you vote to censor POTC, get ready to toss your Metal albums on the bonfire, because that's where you're headed.
    The truth is, you can really take any message out of any form of entertainment if you want to. My parents won't let my little sister watch Lilo and Stitch because they think the message advocates gay marriage (which naturally makes me mad - not only is it reading too much into innocent fun, but people should be able to marry whoever they want...wow, way too political there, ignore that)

    The logical disconnect here is that we're extrapolating possible futures of characters that are essentially frozen in time. There's no telling if the pirates would ever catch the women they pursue, and there's certainly no telling what they would do if they ever caught them. We're postulating a link between the redhead in the auction and the redhead in the painting - I like the idea a lot, but there's no telling for sure if they're the same girl. I don't think we can hold the ride accountable for actions that the characters may or may not commit in a future that will never come.

    It's like Minority Report with haunted caves and singing pigs.

  14. #59

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    There are unwritten rules about how far you can go before people are repelled rather than thrilled. It's the instincts of the showman. How much is titillating, and how much is just gross? You can show pirates blasting cannons at the town, but you can't show one shooting a guy in the head. Don't ask why, it's just the way it is. We all kinda know where that line is.

    The deal with POTC is that for a noteworthy segment of the population, one of those lines has moved a little, while for the rest of the population, it hasn't.

    It is as simple, and as complex, as that.

    Personally, I can't explain why shooting a cannon at soldiers on a wall is fun but shooting a guy in the head isn't, so that undercuts my ability to criticize someone who can swallow the burning town but can't stomach the chase scene (and please, please, let's not pretend we don't know what they've got in mind). We're all a little irrational as long as we enjoy watching any of these violent, exhibitionist fantasies play out. And we all do enjoy it, don't we?
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.

  15. #60

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    Re: Redheaded Pirate Painting At Disneyland

    Quote Originally Posted by HBG2 View Post
    There are unwritten rules about how far you can go before people are repelled rather than thrilled. It's the instincts of the showman. How much is titillating, and how much is just gross? You can show pirates blasting cannons at the town, but you can't show one shooting a guy in the head. Don't ask why, it's just the way it is. We all kinda know where that line is.

    The deal with POTC is that for a noteworthy segment of the population, one of those lines has moved a little, while for the rest of the population, it hasn't.

    It is as simple, and as complex, as that.

    Personally, I can't explain why shooting a cannon at soldiers on a wall is fun but shooting a guy in the head isn't, so that undercuts my ability to criticize someone who can swallow the burning town but can't stomach the chase scene (and please, please, let's not pretend we don't know what they've got in mind). We're all a little irrational as long as we enjoy watching any of these violent, exhibitionist fantasies play out. And we all do enjoy it, don't we?
    You make a good mediator. I may not agree with you 100%, but you've made enough concessions to my point to appease me.

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